Rejecting God

[NotReady]

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So I don't believe that a good god can condemn those who don't believe.


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Repeating:

As for punishing you for your unbelief, that leaves out most of the story. All are sinners and reject God's authority. To remedy this, God sent His Son to be a sacrifice for our sins. When you reject the free offer of justification, forgiveness of sins, there remains no more sacrifice. In spite of this, and even though you think you have a case, in the end "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus as Lord".

[chezlaw]

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So I don't believe that a good god can condemn those who don't believe.


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Repeating:

As for punishing you for your unbelief, that leaves out most of the story. All are sinners and reject God's authority. To remedy this, God sent His Son to be a sacrifice for our sins. When you reject the free offer of justification, forgiveness of sins, there remains no more sacrifice. In spite of this, and even though you think you have a case, in the end "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus as Lord".

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Maybe but many don't belief and even if its a mistake its an honest one.

The punishment is just too extreme (by an infinte order of magnitude) for an honest lack of belief/understanding.

I still cannot come close to reconciling it with my moral feelings which if given by a good god are not deceptive.

What about you, forget the bible for a minute. Can an infinite punishment for an honest mistake be just according to your moral feelings?

chez

[NotReady]

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Can an infinite punishment for an honest mistake be just according to your moral feelings?


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The point I was trying to make is that since there is no sacrifice for sin if you reject the forgiveness which God provides you are still in your sin and are therefore punished for that, not just your unbelief. I also think it's wrong to call unbelief an honest mistake. The Bible is clear about everyone being without excuse. People fool themselves all the time thinking God will overlook this or forgive that but God takes sin seriously. It's bad enough that the only way He could help us without compromising His character was to send His Son to die for us. To then refuse to accept that work which He did that we might be saved leaves the unbeliever without remedy.

[NotReady]

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, ' As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[chezlaw]

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Can an infinite punishment for an honest mistake be just according to your moral feelings?


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The point I was trying to make is that since there is no sacrifice for sin if you reject the forgiveness which God provides you are still in your sin and are therefore punished for that, not just your unbelief. I also think it's wrong to call unbelief an honest mistake. The Bible is clear about everyone being without excuse. People fool themselves all the time thinking God will overlook this or forgive that but God takes sin seriously. It's bad enough that the only way He could help us without compromising His character was to send His Son to die for us. To then refuse to accept that work which He did that we might be saved leaves the unbeliever without remedy.

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I believe the bible is made up by man and none of that stuff happened. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but I'm not lying or being tricky about it - its an honest mistake.

I don't claim to be perfect (not even close). I do lots of things that are wrong and could justifiably be punished, but my wrongs are not so bad that an infinite punishment is justifiable (again according to this god given sense of justice).

Again forget the bible for a moment. Does you're moral sense think the sins of the average person justify an infinite punishment?

chez

[Stu Pidasso]

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if faced with meeting God and Him turning out to actually be the one of the christian faith, how many of you would be actually choose to give the perverbial "up yours" to your creator?


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Isn't this what Lucifer did?

Stu

[NotReady]

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Again forget the bible for a moment. Does you're moral sense think the sins of the average person justify an infinite punishment?


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No Christian I've ever read or talked to likes the idea of punishment. So I don't fully understand the severity. However, I can't forget the Bible. If it's true, then not only is the punishment true but it is also true that God is greater than my understanding, that God is just, that He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that forgiveness of sins and life everlasting is available to all who believe. I believe no one is punished who doesn't deserve it and no one is forgiven who does deserve it.

One thing we learn from the fact of punishment for what we consider minor infractions is that God doesn't consider them minor. In the end, God will win this debate and all will agree with His justice.

The true picture isn't of a vindictive God waiting and hoping for someone to tell a lie or commit a "minor" sin so He can torture him forever. All sin is just the tip of the iceberg - the evil of the human heart is far deeper than people understand. God says that those who appear good to us but reject Him are evil. The harshest words spoken by Jesus were directed to the most religious people of the day. He associated with prostitutes, thieves and tax-gatherers(who were thieves under the Roman system), and He brought very harsh accusations against the scribes and Pharisees. The Bible says that Jesus knew what was in the heart of men and that man judges by appearances but God by the heart.

[Jeff V]

"I believe the bible is made up by man and none of that stuff happened. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but I'm not lying or being tricky about it - its an honest mistake."

Do you know why you believe this? Would you be willing to have an open mind, research, ask questions,and research some more? I know not believing is easier, I was an atheist for 10+ years. In my case it was much easier to dismiss everything as "made up", or fairy tales. However now I feel that there is enough evidence out there that points to a loving God. I also believe if people truly seek Him with an open mind, and with all their heart, they will find Him.

[chezlaw]

its not just not liking punishment or misunderstanding something. Moral feelings are directly experienced and morally I believe that condemning people for not believing is extremely unjust.

I'm not sure if you have the same moral feeling but can you at least understand that for someone who does they cannot believe in a non-deceiving good god that condemns those who don't believe?

I get the impression that you don't share my moral feeling because you believe the bible is true. That may be right I don't know, but for those like me who don't believe the bible it can't change anything.

Hopefully, although we wont change each others views, you can understand why I and others reject the idea of such a god, and really don't have a choice about it.

chez

[NotReady]

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condemning people for not believing is extremely unjust.


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You keep saying this. But I keep pointing out that God is not punishing anyone because they don't believe a set of propositions. Punishment is due in the first place because of sin, hardness of heart, moral depravity, total rebellion against God, total selfishness. Because of all these things and more God would be just if He made no provision for salvation and just condemned everyone as everyone is guilty and deserves condemnation. But He loves the world and so through the sacrifice of His Son He provided a solution, a way out. If you refuse to accept the gift of forgiveness you remain guilty of the sins for which Christ died and you are punished for them, not for a mental decision regarding a proposition.