J8s 20-40 bb - Page 3

DpR · #1 09-09-2005, 01:23 AM

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i have Jh8h in the bb in a very good so cal 20-40 live game. utg a loose passive old lady raises, she gets 3 callers, i call. 5 of us.

the flop is 9s8d4h. i check, utg bets, 2 callers (loose random bad), i call.

the turn is the Kh. i check, utg bets, 2 caller, i checkraise.

comments?

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I don't think I can call the turn c'r wrong, but I think calling is better. I think the chance you are good at the turn are low. I would take "loose passive" lady to not bet the turn with a hand she is not betting a lot of rivers here. You are in perfect position to check raise this river if you hit rather than putting the money in on the turn. You can probably get the check raise in on the heart or 8, maybe not the J.

I like leading this flop too.

CardSharpCook · #2 09-09-2005, 02:02 AM

I prefer waiting 'til you hit. Why? You're in perfect position to get two bets on the river if you hit. The Aggressor in this hand is on your immediate left. She has no reason to believe her AA/KK/AK, whatever this passive UTG player has, is no good. She'll bet an 8 river and she'll probably bet a heart river (no one gives credit to running flush draws). If she does this, it is very likely you'll get at least some of the field for 2 river bets. Getting them for 2 river bets is more valuable than getting them for 2 turn bets because more of the river bets are coming to you.

DpR · #3 09-09-2005, 02:15 AM

Isn't that almost exactly what I said?

CardSharpCook · #4 09-09-2005, 02:20 AM

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Isn't that almost exactly what I said?

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Clearly we posted at the same time. at the same time. No need to go back and check the time stamp or anything.

Seriously though, right on, brother! Just missed your post.

Eric P · #5 09-09-2005, 02:16 AM

FLOP:
Checking could be worse for sure. UTG is going to bet, and if she gets raised then you can just let go. There is too much money to fold for one bet obviously, but you basically need to get runner runner or one of your five outs. I think that betting is the right play, for the above reasons (above posts, bet to get rasied) You turned part one of the runner-runner. And if you knew that was going to happen you would rather have more people in.

TURN:
C/R here seems thin on value (probably marginally correct) but if it is thin on value then it leans towards being expert. If she has a set of kings, then it leans towards being horribly bad. While I don't see this play as bad, i certainly don't make it EVERY time, but it does certainly see it's fair share. You have to make sure not to check raise this flush draw every time, people might get wise and 3-bet you more often (although i sort of take that back, because mostly people aren't very good).

I think that on the turn you can't really make a mistake as long as you don't fold. I do believe that the best line might be leading the turn though. It will either slow everyone down, or UTG will raise again, which will clearly define her hand for you (even further than it is) and if anyone else sticks around, then you have just found out you might be drawing dead either or of your draws (set/nut flush). Anyways, kind of a cool hand, i do believe the way i would play it would be:

check-call flop, bet turn-call UTG raise (if cold-called then I guess i have to call, but i figure i only win about the half the time when i hit).

What happened?

mike l. · #6 09-09-2005, 02:23 AM

everyone called the turn c/r and the river was 2h. hero bet, utg raised, hero called and utg showed AQh.

Steve Giufre · #7 09-09-2005, 02:39 AM

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everyone called the turn c/r and the river was 2h. hero bet, utg raised, hero called and utg showed AQh.

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I really hate the river. I dont even know if this is a value bet or bluff into three opponents. Maybe this is one of those rare spots where his bet will get called by a worse hand and the will force a better hand from making an overcall. I doubt it though. Yuck.

mike l. · #8 09-09-2005, 02:43 AM

hero made his jack high flush and now bet the river. what's wrong with that?

Steve Giufre · #9 09-09-2005, 02:52 AM

Sorry I didnt see he made it, I though he was just betting a jack. Too many beers watching the Pats tonight.

Hamlet · #10 09-09-2005, 11:23 AM

I think the flop is worth a little more than a check-call here. Does anyone lead or check-raise the flop. The pot is pretty sizable. It might be worth getting head's up with the likely over-pair to clean up your outs.

Even if you can't thin the field that much, you can't be in real bad shape with a pair, a backdoor straight and a backdoor flush.