Why, oh why, are we still in Iraq?

[wacki]

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Can the Japanese form a functioning democracy?
If so, do they want to?
Will they ever be ready to take control?
Why is it our concern how they order ourselves with the war over?

Questions from 1945

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Utterly facile comparision. The differnaces between Japan 1945 and Iraq 2005 are to great and massive to even bother listing.

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Whatever. If it takes Iraq 50 years and a giant bloody Civil War to create a democracy they will still do better than we did when we tried to form this country.

I think your arguements, in this, and the following post are weak. You say we don't belong there then you list reasons why they need our help. Well, that is assuming democracy is possible in Iraq. And judging from the recent elections I think you would have to be an idiot to claim it wasn't. So use that 1/2 a brain cell and think about what you are typing about before you insult others. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Will Iraq remain a single country? Who knows but it's obvious democracy will eventually happen.

[The once and future king]

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You say we don't belong there then you list reasons why they need our help.

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Where did I do this?

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Whatever. If it takes Iraq 50 years and a giant bloody Civil War to create a democracy they will still do better than we did when we tried to form this country.

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This dosnt make the comparison with Japan anyless facile. I am surely allowed to attack slopy thinking. Plaease notice how I have given no comment on the actual question of the OP, I have just pointed out the extremley weak resoning of one of the posters in this thread.

At present Yankland must maintain its position in Iraq for mainly domestic political reasons.

Any way Wacki, as a scientist you should try to avoid positions based on emotional ideological attachements.

There is absolutely no objective data to allow us to think that the eventual "triumph" of democracy in Iraq is inevitable.

I think if you were equaly rigerous in the research of all your positions, some of your opinions would change radicaly.

[ptmusic]

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From an ethnocentric point of view.... so what? What does that have to do with us?

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Well, wouldn't it be a waste of blood and treasure if we pull out before the Iraqis can handle themselves?


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I don't really understand you here. What is this "treasure" you are talking about?

If it is our own security, that is not insured; a good argument could be made that our staying in Iraq is hurting our security.

If it is oil, that is unlikely to become a treasure for us.

If it is democracy in Iraq which somehow spreads throughout the Middle East so that the U.S. creates peace after thousands of years of warfare in the region, well that is an incredibly unlikely long-shot. I don't think we should waste any more blood for that incredible long-shot.

-ptmusic

[ptmusic]

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I'd like to hear valid reasons for STAYING there now.
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The plan is to establish a stable democracy in Iraq.
The next step is for the Iraqis to create and approve a constitution. Meanwhile. coalition forces will stay to help fight the terrorists. This is common knowledge. I'm not sure why you even asked this question.

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Because just having a plan isn't good enough. You need to have valid goals for costing lives.

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I'd like to see US troops begin coming home beginning with the term of the next Republican president (Hillary has ZERO chance [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). We can't baby sit the Iraqi govt forever. They need to start killing the terrorists on their own.

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Now I like that plan! I'm not a fan of Hillary, but that's besides the point. What's on point: you, some guy on 2+2 has an actual plan for withdrawing troops. That's a start. But it is kind of arbitrary, isn't it? Why not today? Will everything be just right when Hillary loses?

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In the worst case scenario is the Iraqi govt falls and a civil war errupts. The Sunnis have been murdering large numbers of Shiites and the Shiites are understandibly angry. Since the Shiites out-number the Sunnis 3:1. the Sunnis will have a fight on their hands. The Kurds could gain a lot in an Iraqi civil war. They have an establish paramilatary which is man-for-man is better than anything the Sunnis and Shiites have. They could gain their own nation and perhaps all of Iraq.


Are we going to create permanent stability and democracy throughout the region?
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No, just in Iraq.
If Iraq is successful in prospering under a democratic govt then the HOPE is that other Arabs will want to emulate the success of Iraq. In 10 years it will be interesting to see how this works out.

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In 10 years, it will be interesting. We can all hope. But we can be assured of one thing: more death.

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Meanwhile, the coalition forces will continue to aid the fledging Iraqi govt.


Are we going to improve our relationships around the world by staying longer?
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Which countries should the USA improve its relations with?
France/Germany/Russia/etc... have shown their true colors by violating UN sanctions on Iraq and blocking the USA diplomatically whenever they could. If anything, these countries need to improve their relationship with the USA not the other way around. They need the USA more than we need them. With 'friends' like these, who needs enemies!
I could care less if countries hate the USA.



[/ QUOTE ]This is exactly the mentality that makes people around the world hate us more and more. And we do need our friends. [ QUOTE ]


Geez, this is not high school where if we're not popular then we won't be elected class president.


Are we going to save lives (American and non-American) by staying there longer?
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No(American)
Yes(Non American)


Are we going to win the war on terror?
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Yes, if we can keep the self-hating Americans from sabotaging the war effort.

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I don't hate America. I love it. Always have, probably always will. But I will do my part to end the war.

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Several Democratic politicians have been giving aid and comfort to the enemy with their imflammatory rhetoric (Kennedy/Durbin). These men care more about acquiring power and thwarting Bush43 than protecting the USA. On a Machivallellian note, I'm glad these self-hating Americans are spouting off because they are alienating large numbers of 'moderate' voters which will keep the Democratic kooks from regaining power in the USA.


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There are plenty of "kooks" on both sides. So we moderates, as usual, need to wade through the crap, avoid getting Hannitized and becoming a Deaniac, and make sound decisions. And I seriously doubt any of us are America haters. I don't see what that has to do with the topic at all. To protest a war, and to disagree with government in a peaceful way, is as American as apple pie.

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Are we going to keep the terrorists off our soil?
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No. Not completely. But since 9/11 things have been going well on the home front.

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Things were going well on the home front before 9/11 too. Four years of "going well on the home front" proves nothing about our ability to keep terrorists off our soil permanently. And it certainly proves nothing about the effectiveness that our presence in Iraq has on keeping terrorists off our soil. My point is that staying in Iraq for 1, 10, or 50 more years will not stop terrorists from coming here.

-ptmusic

[Greg J]

If we leave now Iraq implodes into a sea of blood -- and I'm not talking about car bombs and murders. I mean a REAL bloodbath like Sudan, Bosnia, Rwanda, etc.

I opposed the war, but we have a moral obligation to the PEOPLE of Iraq to stay there. The problem is the American people will never stand for real reconstruction, because we love our tax breaks too much -- simply put we are too selfish. Iraq needs more than military occupation -- it needs a Marshal Plan. That means giving up our middle and upper class tax cuts (yes, raise taxes) and end this ridiculous (~50%) unemployment in Iraq. Seriously, people join the insurgency because THEY PAY!!!

But yes, we need to stay in Iraq. And that mean we -- the American people -- should pay for a war we allowed to happen. This means paying with both American blood and American dollars, until Iraq is a country that is politically stable and respects human rights. We should clean up our mess.

[ptmusic]

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If we leave now Iraq implodes into a sea of blood -- and I'm not talking about car bombs and murders. I mean a REAL bloodbath like Sudan, Bosnia, Rwanda, etc.

I opposed the war, but we have a moral obligation to the PEOPLE of Iraq to stay there. The problem is the American people will never stand for real reconstruction, because we love our tax breaks too much -- simply put we are too selfish. Iraq needs more than military occupation -- it needs a Marshal Plan. That means giving up our middle and upper class tax cuts (yes, raise taxes) and end this ridiculous (~50%) unemployment in Iraq. Seriously, people join the insurgency because THEY PAY!!!

But yes, we need to stay in Iraq. And that mean we -- the American people -- should pay for a war we allowed to happen. We should clean up our mess.

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The FIRST reasonable argument for staying that I've ever heard. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, it's not practical, because those in charge of our government (and the war) are never going to raise middle and upper class taxes.

I also am not convinced that anything can prevent the blood bath you describe.

-ptmusic

[BCPVP]

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I don't really understand you here. What is this "treasure" you are talking about?

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Sorry, guess I was being a little too cute. Treasure = all the money we've spent thus far on Iraq (war+reconstruction). It'd be an incredible waste of money if we left and Iraq imploded on itself, wouldn't you agree?

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If it is our own security, that is not insured; a good argument could be made that our staying in Iraq is hurting our security.

If it is oil, that is unlikely to become a treasure for us.

If it is democracy in Iraq which somehow spreads throughout the Middle East so that the U.S. creates peace after thousands of years of warfare in the region, well that is an incredibly unlikely long-shot. I don't think we should waste any more blood for that incredible long-shot.

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None of these are reasons to stay, although some of them have happened as a result of our being there.

[ptmusic]

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I don't really understand you here. What is this "treasure" you are talking about?

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Sorry, guess I was being a little too cute. Treasure = all the money we've spent thus far on Iraq (war+reconstruction). It'd be an incredible waste of money if we left and Iraq imploded on itself, wouldn't you agree?



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And if we stay longer, and lose more lives, and spend more money, AND IRAQ "IMPLODES" ANYWAY (or some non-democratic entity rises and the region looks a lot like it did before we got there), that would be an even more incredible waste, wouldn't you agree?

-ptmusic

[Greg J]

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I also am not convinced that anything can prevent the blood bath you describe.

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But it is a moral imperative that we do (prevent it). I don't care how many Americans have to die. We took this obligation on ourselves, and if we shirk it we would be just as bad as all those yahoos burning American flags claim we are.

[ptmusic]

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I also am not convinced that anything can prevent the blood bath you describe.

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But it is a moral imperative that we do (prevent it). I don't care how many Americans have to die.

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Ok, now you lost me. I commend your moral obligation, but you don't care how many Americans have to die? What if it this lasts 20 years and escalates and we lose over 1 million Americans? And what if non-Americans lose 10 million lives? Do you draw the line anywhere?

And worse: what if all those lives are lost, and then we find out that it was always impossible to prevent the blood bath?

-ptmusic