What to do with JJ here?

[SonOfWestwood]

Okay, having a bigger stack and therefore more implied odds to make the pre-flop call makes a lot of sense. So, assuming I had a full $25 stack (or more), Am I simply folding on this flop then?

[imported_anacardo]

You'd have a little more to play back at a missed AK-AQ, but I think you have to have faith in your read here and muck.

[SonOfWestwood]

Okay, so it looks like the call pre-flop was the mistake here...

In this case, I was getting about 2.25 to 1 for the pre-flop call and about 6.5 to 1 in implied odds for the pre-flop call.

So, in situations like this, what do the odds need to be? Or should I simply use the 5/10 rule here? I was a bit confused whether or not to call because there was money in the pot already.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, having a bigger stack and therefore more implied odds to make the pre-flop call makes a lot of sense. So, assuming I had a full $25 stack (or more), Am I simply folding on this flop then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your confident read, and reason for calling preflop, yes.

When you get re-raised preflop whilst holding JJ on these quite deep stack sizes-

1. Either you read it as maybe being beat but consider you are a favourite to still have the best hand. In this case you see the flop, and move in on favourable flops after the other guy has bet. (when i say move in, I am assuming the other guy bets the flop and there would be less than 1 bet left in the stacks if you just call it).

2. Or you read it as most likely being beat, in which case you either fold or play for the set depending on your read of the implied odds. In this case, when you do see the flop, you are most likely folding when you miss.

With read number 2, the implied odds are likely not there when facing a 2.50 re-raise with $25 in stack. To be getting implied odds on that ratio, you would need to read the situation as being paid off a large % of the time you hit the set- such as putting an easy to read opponent on AA/KK only, or having a favourable situation like good position relative to the raiser in a 3 way or better pot. Otherwise, you would need to have read number 1 to be able to call the re-raise on these ratios (put them on a wider range than AA-JJ, AK).

In your situation, I would say you were against an easy to read opponent on AA/KK a large % of the time. So if you had about $25 call and try to flop the set, and if you had less, fold preflop.

On shallower stacks, when re-raised whilst holding JJ preflop, you will be either moving in or folding preflop.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so it looks like the call pre-flop was the mistake here...

In this case, I was getting about 2.25 to 1 for the pre-flop call and about 6.5 to 1 in implied odds for the pre-flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

How sure are you about these implied odds?

Normally, you will need about 10-1. But a lot of people over-estimate the implied odds they are getting. They usually just look at the stack they can win, and consider that stack + the current pot and bet as being the implied odds in the situation. This is only true if you can be sure you will be paid off all the time.

The figure I use as a guideline, when facing a reasonable bet, is the call amount of the reraise needs to be 10% or less of my stack (or my opponents if their stack is shorter) before I may be getting the implied odds. The closer to 10% it is, the more sure I need to be about getting paid off when I hit. When it's more than 10% to call the re-raise, the implied odds will never be there, and I re-raise or fold.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
I was a bit confused whether or not to call because there was money in the pot already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Money in the pot is included in the implied odds equation.