Agnosticism in Doubt - Page 3

chezlaw · #21 12-14-2005, 03:06 AM

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The reason to believe is that you are a human with the incredible ability to make a choice(forget determinism for a sec, you obviously can choose to believe or not). The ability to make this choice is a frightening and fantastic aspect of life that should not be wasted. What reason do you have for not believing? Resignation?

btw chez i don't mean to sound harsh or disrespectful of your views.

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Sound as harsh as you like. I don't believe because I've no raeson to, its really as simple as that. Nothing frightening or fantastic involved and no resignation. I do believe that those who believe also have no reason to and that many who say they believe dont actually believe.

The only thing I'm resigned to is the athiest/agnostic debacle and that someone will bring up Pascal's wager yet again.

I've tried believing that if I look at your avatar long enough the hands will disappear but I just can't persuade myself its true.

[Edit: Its been of general agreement on this board that you can't chose what to believe (nothing to do with free will), you claim you obviously can, I believe you're wrong].

chez

#22 12-14-2005, 03:09 AM

I think the point here is that some people can't just 'choose' to believe in something. This seems to be something fundamental to a personality type, wired, I don't know what - but speaking personally it's just not an option. I'm majorly into Philosophy of religion, I've read most of the views, I've given them due consideration - but all that I can conclude from that is that we are nowhere remotely close to having any proof for or against god.

Some people probably can choose to believe in something without evidence, I can't, it's just not in me. And for what it's worth, for all my personality traits I'm not particularly keen on, I really like that one - I think that kind of natural skepticism is extremely important to intellectual integrity.

Lestat · #23 12-14-2005, 03:09 AM

Clearly I dont believe in god. I'm not sure how there could be any confusion about that. (I'm really confused as to how you think this is to do with me setting a low probability for god's existence) 

I did say make sure to say:

I'm not directing any of this at you chezlaw, just that I see the importance of Evolvedform seems to be saying about making a decision. 

I've read enough of your posts to know where you stand. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

chezlaw · #24 12-14-2005, 03:11 AM

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I think the point here is that some people can't just 'choose' to believe in something. This seems to be something fundamental to a personality type, wired, I don't know what - but speaking personally it's just not an option. I'm majorly into Philosophy of religion, I've read most of the views, I've given them due consideration - but all that I can conclude from that is that we are nowhere remotely close to having any proof for or against god.

Some people probably can choose to believe in something without evidence, I can't, it's just not in me. And for what it's worth, for all my personality traits I'm not particularly keen on, I really like that one - I think that kind of natural skepticism is extremely important to intellectual integrity.

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I agree 100%.

Except with the suggestion that some people can chose what to believe. They believe without evidence because they are credulous not because they chose to.

chez

#25 12-14-2005, 03:26 AM

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Some people probably can choose to believe in something without evidence, I can't, it's just not in me. And for what it's worth, for all my personality traits I'm not particularly keen on, I really like that one - I think that kind of natural skepticism is extremely important to intellectual integrity.

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I alluded to the personality trait thing in another post and I agree there is probably truth to it. However, I disagree with the intellectual integrity part. There is more to philosophy than rationality. There is subjectivity; you cannot truly know a position until you've lived it.

chezlaw · #26 12-14-2005, 03:28 AM

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 Clearly I dont believe in god. I'm not sure how there could be any confusion about that. (I'm really confused as to how you think this is to do with me setting a low probability for god's existence) 

I did say make sure to say:

I'm not directing any of this at you chezlaw, just that I see the importance of Evolvedform seems to be saying about making a decision. 

I've read enough of your posts to know where you stand. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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I hadn't realised the bit abouit it not being about me was being carried forward.

The analogy with poker is still bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

chez

imported_luckyme · #27 12-14-2005, 03:32 AM

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The ability to make this choice is a frightening and fantastic aspect of life that should not be wasted.

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It's only f & f if you give it some discernible chance to be true. I know a lady who calls herself an agnostic ( I call her an umm-nostic) because if asked she just shrugs and says "well, umm, could be or it could be 3 drunken aliens did it on a dare in chem class."

It's not f & f anymore than wondering if we'll find the 13th planet. It just doesn't matter to a lot of people, what would change even if they forced themselves to say yea or nay?

luckyme,
If I thought I was wrong, my mind would have changed.

imported_luckyme · #28 12-14-2005, 03:40 AM

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I alluded to the personality trait thing in another post and I agree there is probably truth to it. However, I disagree with the intellectual integrity part. There is more to philosophy than rationality. There is subjectivity; you cannot truly know a position until you've lived it

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The bold part is another personality based concept. I was working on some policy papers the other day with a community leader and they shrugged at one point and said, "It's just words." I know them well, and it's not like they meant "I'm not going to follow the policy, so write what you want". They meant, "concepts and abstract ways of looking at things are not real, the only real thing is action and the direct results of it.". I think that is true for 73% of the population.

#29 12-14-2005, 03:42 AM

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[Edit: Its been of general agreement on this board that you can't chose what to believe (nothing to do with free will), you claim you obviously can, I believe you're wrong].

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then why are we bothering to argue this? If you do end up changing your mind, (from the determinist view) it will not be because of this discussion and your rational thought. Is this any kind of explanation at all? Why think about this at all if you don't have a choice? (BTW, I'm aware of the counter-arguments and I don't agree with them. I'm still looking into it and am pretty undecided on this issue).

imported_luckyme · #30 12-14-2005, 03:48 AM

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[Edit: Its been of general agreement on this board that you can't chose what to believe (nothing to do with free will), you claim you obviously can, I believe you're wrong].

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then why are we bothering to argue this? If you do end up changing your mind, (from the determinist view) it will not be because of this discussion and your rational thought.

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You believe when you believe, and you always believe 100%. It's not about determinism, it's about the nature of belief..in anything - what time it is, how far you are form NY. You'll believe what you believe and you'll be 100% sure of what you believe. There is no other way.

luckyme,
If I thought I was wrong, my mind would have changed.