Self Destructive Players Online

I am a modestly winning low stakes, recreational player and might feel differently if my livelihood depended on poker winnings. When I play live and online, most of the horrible players do seem to be enjoying themselves according to their own lights. But some people have a problem. Roy Cooke, a strong, winning pro for many years has written some interesting columns about losing players. I find his point of view admirable, in that he tries to win and play well without losing his perspective and humanity. I think this is a form of winning in life, too.

[Duke]

The real question, then, is whose money is it OK to take, and to what extent?

Is it 'better' to take someone's money over many years and break them slowly, instead of take a grand from a moron in a 4-8 game in one night, and then scare them away form the table forever? That's probably better for that guy than losing everything over the course of a year.

Is it even OK to take money from an inferior player who is sober? Do they have to be drunk, or is tilt enough to get someone to intervene?

You're citing a fact about the very nature of these games. Whether he's drunk or not he's worse than you at the game. Is it only OK to beat superior players out of money when they're card dead? How can you make a living doing that?

I don't see a moral dilemma in this. Take the money. By putting his money up and sitting down, he bought the right to be respected as if he were any other player. Therefore, I give him that respect. I try to break him the same as I try to break a sober dude who's just a bit worse than me.

Nobody ever gave me money back after I lost to them, or stopped me from putting another grand into a 15-30 game when I wasn't mentally capable of playing at even 50 percent.

Am I supposed to feel bad about it? [censored] that. [censored] him; [censored] everybody who looks down on me for saying so. I'll change my tune when someone writes me a check for every cent that I've tilted away over the years. Without tilt I'd be retiring by now.

~Duke

[CEO]

More valuable than any amount of money is time. Since we only have a limited time on this earth, wasting time is far worse than wasting money, in the eyes of most people.

Many people look at poker players when they walk into a casino and think how sick and pathetic they are for wasting time, and wasting their lives. Whether or not they are winners or losers they make a value judgement about it. I feel they are wrong.

In the end, each individual makes their own choices and lives their own consequences, both good and bad. That is what life is about. You can't make value judgements about someone else, certainly not someone as far removed as an unknown player on the internet, any more than I should be able to make value judgements about you.

If this keeps up, I suggest a good therapist would be a wise investment, to help you come to terms with your own issues.

[comic2b]

I'd like to play with them.

[Al Schoonmaker]

This is a fascinating thread, and it relates directly to another recent one on conscience. The critical question is whether we should take advantage of weakness when that weakness is clearly pathological.

If we can't take advantage of weakness, we should play Old Maid, not poker. Poker is a predatory game, and all predators select vulnerable prey.

But what if they are especially vulnerable because they are drunk or mentally ill? Do we players have a responsibility to protect them? Does a casino?

Let's take the casino's responsibility first. A lawsuit has been filed recently by a pathological gambler demanding reimbursement for all his losses plus damages for emotional suffering, etc. Similar suits have been filed in the past, and I don't know how they have been decided. If anyone knows, I'd appreciate a report or a reference to a publication with information.

This lawsuit is potentially as devastating to casinos as the tobacco suits were to that industry. If the courts decide that casinos have a responsibility to protect people from their own weaknesses, it could have a massive impact. Lots os people will be watching this lawsuit as it works its away through the courts.

Do we, as players, have a similar responsibility? I'll talk only for myself. If a friend is drunk and throwing away money, I'll do whatever I can to get him out of the game. Ditto if a friend is severely on tilt.

If a stranger or even someone I know, but have no relationship with outside of poker is drunk or on tilt, I'll enjoy taking his money.

I must make one last comment. The word "sociopath" was used in an earlier post. I believe that name-calling is inappropriate and inconsistent with the norms of this forum. One reason so many of us come here and avoid RGP is that we're more civilized. Let's disagree without being disagreeable.

Regards,

Al

Well, I'm certainly not saying I have any problem beating drunk, tilted or bad players. I want to stress I am a WINNING low limit player. But when I see someone playing in a truly depraved fashion -- ie. the player I cited who was playing EVERY hand -- I do feel compassion for that player. In a live game, especially at the lower limits I play (1-3 through 5-10) I do think some players might try to talk with the player. On the Internet, that's less possible. For example, the player I'm speaking of never chatted a word during the 90 minutes I played with him. Those posters who feel "everyone is equal at the table, just take his money" are, in my view, lacking in perspective and decency. There are two sides to the game -- playing hard and winning is one, sharing the game with others who play it is another. Obviously, this site is an example of the latter. I think trying to help severely sick gamblers deal with their problem is another.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'm going to challenge you on this, if for no other reason than your post has a self-righeous sound to it.

How do you know that that person in the online game was hurting himself? In my view, you are basing a very strong opinion on a shaky premise.

I say again, there are $1,000 slot machines at Bellagio. That's $3,000 per spin. They aren't there for show, there are people who play them. For those people, $3,000 per spin has the same impact on their finances as 15 cents per spin does for nickel slots players.

The point is - money does not have an objective value. Yes, the person online COULD be gambling his grocery money, but he just as easily could be throwing away an insignificant amount of pocket change. You don't know, yet you use this flawed preminse to flaunt your moral superiority.

Fine. I believe in freedom. You're free to leave the table for whatever reason you choose. As far as I'm concerned, when a person with free will CHOOSES to sit at the table, their problems are their responsibility.

Wow. Individual responsibility. there's a unique concept. But, then again, I'm a sociopath. What'd you expect from a guy who uses a Klingon screen name?
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Kurnson, I did not call you a sociopath. And I earlier agreed that it was possible that this particular player is a wealthy eccentric. If that is the case, I wouldn't be concerned. But I think you must concede that there are problem gamblers in the poker world who lose their homes and families. It's interesting -- and disturbing -- to me that so many people reject any concept of compassion for these people.

[CEO]

I have many times watched my friends go on tilt playing poker, one of them recognized as world-class published expert. Even though I consider a couple of these friends as extremely close, at the poker table, there is no such things as "friends", to me.

If they want to go on tilt at the poker table, or even drink, so much the better. Sure, they can come and cry on my shoulder later on, after the game is over, but at the game, I would only encourage their self-destructive behavior, and try to direct their chips to me.