Jacked Up?

[Ulysses]

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I still had two outs and the pot is attractive enough for me to call the turn hoping for the miracle river.......

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The pot's nowhere close to big enough to chase for a Jack. If you think your chances of being good are good enough to call the turn, call the river. If not, fold on the turn. Simple.

[Gramps]

Babe,

There's only 8.5 BB in the pot on the Turn when it's your turn to act. That's less than half the pot size you need to justify the Turn call with two outs (if you're proceeding like you're behind, and intend to fold the River unimproved).

Certainly if you call there, it's with the intention of going to showdown. That's the mystifying part of this hand - calling the Turn and folding the River. 99% of the time, that Queen didn't change whether you were ahead or behind. So, you must have thought you might be ahead when you called the Turn bet.

[elysium]

hi babe
it was a good fold. it was a bad fold. poker babe has returned. and now we are a happy fold.

[JTG51]

Even if my worst fears on the turn were correct (as they were), I still had two outs and the pot is attractive enough for me to call the turn hoping for the miracle river

Yup, as long as you can get 15 bets out of him when the Jack hits.

[David Sklansky]

"The pot's nowhere close to big enough to chase for a Jack. If you think your chances of being good are good enough to call the turn, call the river. If not, fold on the turn. Simple"

Even if you know a queen is a blank the above statement is incorrect. I discuss the exact same concept in one of my books. I called a fourth st bet with a gutshot bike draw and an ace overcard. Who remembers that hand? I used similar reasoning as Poker Babe. Reasoning that is CRITICAL if you are playing in the bigger tougher games. There you must be willing to sometimes call the turn but sometimes fold the same hand on the river to avoid being exploited.

If you feel that your judgement is lacking you can resort to approximate game theory on both streets.

With all that being said, I will agree that in this particular case the river call is pretty automatic. But the fold on the turn or call on the river concept that Mr.780 and others referred to is something that Lee Jones might say.

[Zeno]

Are the games so loose that no credence is given to hand reading skills anymore? Even if the person is an unknown you can still glean information and make the proper lay down. Especially against relatively unthinking players, if that is your read. But if you knew the player had a 9, perhaps a fold on the turn or river was in order. But others are more properly disposed to discuss that.

In a 10-20 game recently I made a read and called the river with pocket sixes - My hand was good - to quote a famous phase.

But then, I'm a misanthrope, so I do things like that based solely on reading skill. Is this now passé?

-Zeno

PS. I think you should have titled your post- Jacked Off. It would garner more hits and make 2+2 happier. I think.

[Michael Davis]

"But the fold on the turn or call on the river concept that Mr.780 and others referred to is something that Lee Jones might say."

What Clark said and Diplomat echoed.

-Michael

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is 9c, 9s, 5c. BB checks, I bet am raised (bb folds) and I 3 bet. Opponent makes it 4 bets and I call. Turn is a red 7 - I check/call. River, Qd. I check/fold.


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i really hope enon is reading this b/c this is something i've been discussing with him for some time (read: LONG time).

you don't have odds to hit the set on the turn, 8.5:1 by my count minus rake. you're call on the turn indicates you think you're hand may still be good. the Queen shouldn't change anything on the river and NOW you fold getting better pot odds??

this has to, virtually by definition be incorrect. fold the turn OR call the river. i've been chanting this to enon for so long it feels like a mantra.

-Barron

[1800GAMBLER]

There's no way an unknown 20/40 players bluffing frequency/hands you can beat gets so low on the river, yet not the turn, that you can fold here. Nope, never.

[bernie]

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What most people here realize is that someone calling a 4th bet on the flop and calling on the turn is pretty unlikely to fold the river. Any thinking opponent knows that if I am calling the turn, I am hard pressed to NOT throw in the 40 on the river. Remember that this guy doesn't know me at all. I would expect that he would expect me to call the river.


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The main problem i see with this thinking? You dont know him. I understand what you're saying, but he's an unknown. I will give some credit that sometimes you can get a little line on one's play by their betspeed and bodylanguage. I know you've played enough to clue into this if it presents itself. I did this recently with JJ against a gal's AA. She was on auto-bet with a 4 way pot preflop and on the flop. She seemed like a little less seasoned player. I folded the turn with no overcards. She went all the way and showed AA. But had i called her turn, i'd have called her river. (actually, i'd have had to raise her turn) This could be what you were 'sensing' during this hand.

I dont agree with Oz in this case. I think you can wait to make the play he's thinking of until you know the player better. I would rather establish against the 'new' player that i won't fold the river for 1 bet here. That to me, might make it more likely that i can read his river bets better in later hands since he will have to think more that i will call him. Otherwise, you 'could' open yourself up to some bluff bets on the river.

Though if he's calling the Babe's raises with 94o, he may only have enough brain power to move chips in the pot. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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It seemed bizarre that someone 2 UTG would call my raise with A,9

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To my amazement, I see a red 9 and a black 4.


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Gotta love that.

b