What do you do on this river? - Page 3

swarm · #21 05-12-2005, 10:48 AM

This is the problem with your thinking here Tilt is that bad players don't play hands rationally.

What could villan have that he is going to pay you off on? It's a $500 dollar pot and he checked the flop and only bet 60 on the turn. Obviously if he thought he had a strong hand don't you think he would be protecting against the flush and straight draws? What could he possibly have that he is going to A bet on this river, B call a check raise on this river (not much)...

Many people with a flush draw would be hesitant to bluff at this pot because of the potsize. If they bet it and someone has a Q they are getting check-raised all in. A sneaky might throw out a jab bet on the turn to confuse someone holding a 10 or lower pocket pair to refute them from making it expensive to see the river card so they can make their flush.

Your saying check raise an aggressive player, wouldn't have an aggressive player already made a move on this pot already?

pergesu · #22 05-12-2005, 10:48 AM

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Whats your line on check/raising?

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Entirely non-existent, because I think it's crappy.

I already posted my line. It's check/fold all streets, except when I get lucky and make a set on the river, in which case I bet out.

go fish · #23 05-12-2005, 10:54 AM

You don't stop to think for even a second after the teeny 60 bet on the turn with the one guy after you?

ekky · #24 05-12-2005, 11:01 AM

think about what? you are not being consistent. Either you think this bet is a sign of strength or its a sign of weakness....

you have nailed your flag to the pole by wanting to lead out, therefore not being worried at all by the small bet.

I would have a small amount of respect for it, and check/call, hence I am a slight bit worried by it.

durron597 · #25 05-12-2005, 11:05 AM

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I felt that the CO was the strongest player on the table.

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I'm still not sure from all your replies what the right line is, but I just want to clarify: this is still only level 2, my read on the CO is not that great yet. He's not someone I would describe as tight passive, but seems to be more tight than aggressive, and seems to be playing good hands. But since we're less than 20 hands into the tourney it's very hard to give a much stronger read than that.

Also I want to say that I think folding the turn is terrible. You're getting 7:1 and you're ahead a lot of the time here to AJ/KJ/smaller PP not to mention the better hands you can get a tighter player fold like AT and A8.

pergesu · #26 05-12-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't stop to think for even a second after the teeny 60 bet on the turn with the one guy after you?

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No, because he calls a reasonable check-raise with any pair. The only check-raise that pushes him off is an all-in. Needless to say if I don't like a check-raise at all, I certainly don't like check-raising for your stack.

It's okay to be weak early on in a low level SNG when you have crap. And don't kid yourself, you have crap here. Just because the flop checked around and he bet small doesn't suddenly make your fourth pair any good.

What amazes me is how some people are advocating to play the hand strong until the river, and then turn into a pussy.

durron597 · #27 05-12-2005, 11:45 AM

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What amazes me is how some people are advocating to play the hand strong until the river, and then turn into a pussy.

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I agree. I think you have to decide what probability he has the straight or the flush here and check/call if you think it's high or bet/call if you think it's low. I don't like check/raise in either case because he will only call the raise with hands that beat you... he doesn't have AQ or 33.

adanthar · #28 05-12-2005, 12:18 PM

For the love of God, the advice in this thread is terrible.

First of all, and probably most importantly, this situation should never come up because you shouldn't call the turn. Betting it is even worse than calling, especially in a $5 SNG. You think you can get a T or even an 8 to fold if you bet? Really? I think the typical $5 calling station folds those around 0% of the time, and you'd be betting the turn into 3 people. You don't suppose ONE of them has a Q, T, 8, or some other hand that beats you like 99 that they just feel like playing? You don't even have the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], so if you get called and it hits you're screwed...oh wait, it did.

Calling is bad on general principle - even this tiny bet - because you don't know where you are, can't find out, are committing yourself to calling another t60 on the river if it's the 2 of horseshoes, and chances are that the guy has a hand that beats 77 even if it's only 84 suited. Bad players don't understand the concept of pot odds anyway, so the size of this bet gives you zero information aside from him *probably* not having AQ (he'd have minbet the flop with that or something).

So you get to the river. First of all, if you check/fold this river you shouldn't be playing poker. Second, check raising it is horrendous because you have to call a three bet. Third, check/calling would be OK if you misclicked and actually called a t200 bet on the turn, instead, but this card will usually scare him as much as you.

So bet out and (probably) call a raise (because a bad player also plays QT this way), and it's not close.

durron597 · #29 05-12-2005, 01:23 PM

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So you get to the river. First of all, if you check/fold this river you shouldn't be playing poker. Second, check raising it is horrendous because you have to call a three bet. Third, check/calling would be OK if you misclicked and actually called a t200 bet on the turn, instead, but this card will usually scare him as much as you.

So bet out and (probably) call a raise (because a bad player also plays QT this way), and it's not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I bet and he pushes over me, you think I should call? QT is only one hand, whereas a lot of hands will push over me that beat me. But if I check and he bets, he will probably make a value bet (there's no reason for him to think that AT isn't good if I check the river). So in other words I can't bet because I can't call a raise, but if I check to induce a bet I can call that.

I don't understand why you don't like check-call.

Tilt · #30 05-12-2005, 01:34 PM

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I don't understand why you don't like check-call.

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I like check/call best after thinking about it.

I still think the bad players at the 5's pay off a check raise with alot of inferior hands here but I agree its not worth the risk of being forced to call an all-in.

I don't like betting out, because I want to get paid off for what is likely the best hand, and I think a check is most likely to do that. If you bet out it looks like you represent the flush. And then he folds his AT. If you check/call he'll bet most of the time with many weak hands, if he checks behind well then he wasnt going to pay you anyway.