River ...

[supersub]

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Basically we have a person who chooses not to bet the flop. and then he chooses to call the turn. We can probably assume he does not have a piece on the flop, but has a piece on the turn. That piece might only be ace high (will it call a bet on the river?... maybe) or a Q. Against a Q if we check, Villian will nearly always value bet allowing us to cr. He will also call. Just some thoughts I had after I played the hand.

Krishan

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Are you suggesting that ace high is more likely to bet after being checked to then to call after being bet into?
That can´t be the case, can it?

Or do you think that an ace will fold the river no matter what and just called the turn with hopes of improvement or you checking it down?

my thinking is that a player weak enough to open-call on the button will not bet many hands here. But he will certainly call a lot.

[Lmn55d]

I don't really think we can chalk our difference of opinion up to Shania. If each of us plays againt certain people for multiple sessions or people are watching us play, then yea, our different flop betting shanias come into play.

I have a feeling that here we just have different perceptions of what typical 10/20 players call or raise the flop with. I'll stab at an Axx, Kxx, Qxx flop all day long, but I wouldn't bet this one because you're gonna get a lot of calls (I'd bet it with a pair or ax because that showdown value is very valuable if sb calls and moderately valuable if button calls). For this reason I think this is a must bet. I think betting is a lot better than checking and I can't imagine that you have a flop Shania that would make it otherwise.

With regard to the river, I would bet it. I see why you thought about checking (induce a bluff from a missed draw or get more value from a turned Q or rivered jack), but I'm always so surprised at the hands that turn up on the river even after this action. Ax, 33, 77, who knows. These actually wouldn't surprise me all that much. Also, someone that doesn't bet that flop from the button when checked to is unlikely to bluff the river here I think.

[krishanleong]

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Are you suggesting that ace high is more likely to bet after being checked to then to call after being bet into?
That can´t be the case, can it?


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No, if he has an ace, betting the river is much better than checking.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

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I don't really think we can chalk our difference of opinion up to Shania. If each of us plays againt certain people for multiple sessions or people are watching us play, then yea, our different flop betting shanias come into play.

I have a feeling that here we just have different perceptions of what typical 10/20 players call or raise the flop with. I'll stab at an Axx, Kxx, Qxx flop all day long, but I wouldn't bet this one because you're gonna get a lot of calls (I'd bet it with a pair or ax because that showdown value is very valuable if sb calls and moderately valuable if button calls). For this reason I think this is a must bet. I think betting is a lot better than checking and I can't imagine that you have a flop Shania that would make it otherwise.

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Good enough for me. I'll try leading for a while and see what happens.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

I edited the above post with some commments about the river play

[krishanleong]

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Also, someone that doesn't bet that flop from the button when checked to is unlikely to bluff the river here I think.

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Absolutely. But when he calls the turn he's less likely to have absolutely nothing.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

that's true but it doesn't really negate my point. A lot of his "not absolutely nothings" call but don't bet. And I still don't think that sort of player is particularly likely to bluff a draw. A lot of his Kx draws have some showdown value anyway.

[joker122]

i think i'm in love with it.

it's often a picked up heart draw that won't call but might bluff.

it's often a queen that will ALWAYS bet, and we get 2 bets out of him.

it's so rarely a hand that wants a free SD but will call a bet.