Raisin' preflop with JTo

[Piiop]

I think, depending on the opponent, that a loose-verypassive opponent will often call the flop with very, very little (even when it is essentially drawless). Thusly, I would bet the turn with the intention of checking behind on the river unless it's a T or a J in which case I will bet. I'd like checking it down more if I had a hand that had some showdown value (like a higher high card or a pair), but then again with those I may be value-betting. It's kind of opponent dependant, but I would bet the turn probably.

[MoreWineII]

I think the question here is do you think you're opponent will fold a hand that beats you (if you bet the turn) often enough to make that bet profitable? If the answer's yes, you should bet. If it's no, you shouldn't.

God, I'm wise like owl.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the question here is do you think you're [sic] opponent will fold a hand that beats you (if you bet the turn) often enough to make that bet profitable? If the answer's yes, you should bet. If it's no, you shouldn't.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is obviously the question. The problem is, what's the answer?

[MoreWineII]

The 8-ball says...

<font color="red"> Try Again Later </font>

Nah, for reals I usually make this bet, but I can't really explain why. I guess because if I make mistake, I'd rather do it trying to win the pot.

[chesspain]

Joker,

If this is how you're going to play JTo post-flop against this type of opponent (i.e. very loose and very passive), then maybe going for the isolation raise preflop isn't such a great idea.

Seriously, although JTo is a pretty hand, it has little showdown value unimproved, and when you miss the flop you are going to find it nearly impossible to fold out your opponent's overcard(s) or crappy pair. You are then faced with the same quandries on the turn and river if you miss, because you now realize that you can only win by attempting to get him to lay down his (hopefully likewise unpaired) overcards.

I know that the tenor on these boards the last couple of months has been "raise, raise, raise" preflop, but I think that raising w/JTo against a loose-passive EP limper is just a variance increasing move of unknown EV value, unless you know the limper to be weak-tight post-flop and the players behind you to be very tight preflop.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Joker,

If this is how you're going to play JTo post-flop against this type of opponent (i.e. very loose and very passive), then maybe going for the isolation raise preflop isn't such a great idea.

Seriously, although JTo is a pretty hand, it has little showdown value unimproved, and when you miss the flop you are going to find it nearly impossible to fold out your opponent's overcard(s) or crappy pair. You are then faced with the same quandries on the turn and river if you miss, because you now realize that you can only win by attempting to get him to lay down his (hopefully likewise unpaired) overcards.

I know that the tenor on these boards the last couple of months has been "raise, raise, raise" preflop, but I think that raising w/JTo against a loose-passive EP limper is just a variance increasing move of unknown EV value, unless you know the limper to be weak-tight post-flop and the players behind you to be very tight preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, and it's exactly the reason I'm uncomfortable playing marginal hands for PFR's. That said, When I do this as a blind steal it seems more effective -- but against an EP limper, it's usually a player who will passively go to showdown. If I were more aggressive I'd be betting the turn and river until he folded, but I thought once he called this flop I wasn't getting him to fold much -- mostly because he showed he wasn't scared of the ace.

There are many flops where I would have bet a turn -- a raggedy rainbow flop, for example, because I could put him on a draw or overcards. But when he called THIS flop, showing he isn't scared of an ace, I thought he had at least bottom pair, and it would be a hand he wouldn't fold for one bet heads up.

[private joker]

Villain showed KQs (of [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) and MHING. It appears I should have bet the turn and would almost certainly have taken the pot.