maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm not sure but I think trying for a check/raise here seems very unnatural. Against a good opponent, I see it going check,check very often. I would probably wait a few seconds and then push it all-in. But I would do that with QQ, too. And probably AA also. Basically, I don't see any reason to bet small than all-in which will let him put YOU to a decision for your stack when you can put HIM to a decision for his stack. Unless you check trying to see the turn for free when he checks it back. But if he bets, I really don't see him folding to a check/raise. Maybe he will, though. You know I don't play in this game...

[LuvDemNutz]

Just call me Confucius.

[fimbulwinter]

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I'm not sure but I think trying for a check/raise here seems very unnatural. Against a good opponent, I see it going check,check very often.

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wait wait wait. i have 8 high with a draw to the nuts. i'm behind.

you're seeing a good player giving me a free card as a bad thing?

fim

ps- not trying to pick on you here or anything, but i dont think you're at your best in this thread.

[chuddo]

EMP opens weak and gets a ton of callers.

you hit it a lick out of the BB on a steal. i really like this play and do it a lot myself. unless you have an awful image, a weak table gives you credit for a HUGE hand here every time.

the amount you raised is dependant upon the # of limpers, but i like to typically overbet in this spot. basically announcing "i dont want to play my huge hand OOP against a ton of people, but you can call my big raise if you hate money."

now emp opener just calls you. no worries now about being up against AA/KK as even johnny slowplay himself isn't wanting the rest of the limpers getting in for that price.

to be honest, when i am making this same play i pretty much welcome the opener calling my raise, and going to the flop heads up. too often he is simply not going to hit the flop hard enough to continue, so his PF call means more money for me to steal.

that said, im pretty much betting every single flop regardless of how scary it may be. usually slightly less than the pot, say 350 or so.

had the board come 10-6-2 i would fire right into it. had it come A-Q-10 i would fire right into it.

too often people aren't going to continue. and almost sure as hell not going to make a move on you as you seem so comitted to your hand.

the strong continuation is very much +++EV in spots like these, so for me it is bombs away. the fact i flopped a decent draw is simply icing.

that said, what do you do if called?

some friends consider it a leak of mine sometimes, but i am firing off the second barrel on almost every turn. ace--push. spade--push. queen--push.

i make sure when engineering the betting that i will have at least if not more than the pot for the turn push.

again i still consider this +EV in my experience. i have seen a hand like KQ call the flop bet. only to fold to the turn because they finally believe you.

[LethalRose]

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This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

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So you're saying if I plan to call a push I'm better off just pushing myself?

If its +EV pot odds wise to call a push dont we want our opponent to push? An overbet or push might cause him to fold.

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Think about what you just wrote.

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Im going to go out on a limb and say an open push here is best. As it puts your opponent to the test for all his chips. And if he calls you're still in good shape.

[SpaceAce]

Eh, nevermind.

SpaceAce

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
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I'm not sure but I think trying for a check/raise here seems very unnatural. Against a good opponent, I see it going check,check very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait wait wait. i have 8 high with a draw to the nuts. i'm behind.

you're seeing a good player giving me a free card as a bad thing?

fim

ps- not trying to pick on you here or anything, but i dont think you're at your best in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yo man, I'm hoping you just overlooked it when I wrote
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Unless you check trying to see the turn for free when he checks it back.

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I think that's okay, but I also think it will give up the vast majority of your fold equity in the hand. So I'm more in the chuddo camp of either betting the flop and leaving yourself enough to push the turn or just pushing the flop. The thing with checking to try to see the turn is that you really don't want to fold this hand. You built a big pot preflop and you want it. If you check and he checks and you miss the turn, now you have less fold equity and less pot equity than you did on the flop. Yuck. I am definitely keeping the initiative here and betting the flop. In my mind, the only question is how much to bet. And I think the two best routes are 350 (so you can push the turn) or all in.

[fimbulwinter]

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Eh, nevermind.

SpaceAce

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profound.

fim

ps- [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[srm80]

just asking what your move would be if a 5s or Ten of spades comes on the turn?

[srm80]

also, if the table has been playing weak tight, wouldn't you want to check, possibly getting a free card? or if MP does bet here, it might be a small sized bet that you can call getting odds.