More proof that I hate all Muslims...

[MMMMMM]

kurto, i agree there are many moderate Muslims, and that most Muslims are not extremists. One problem however is that the violent extremists are nevertheless quite numerous.

Also, especially in the Middle East and parts of Asia, the moderates often hesitate to speak out against the actions of the extremists for fear of incurring personal harm. This is often a reasonable fear on their part.

A great many clergy also preach extremism. Obviously this creates further problems.

[kurto]

First, may I say I appreciate your measured responses. You are the anti-jaxmike. lol

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The philosophical foundation of Islam itself supports extremism. The fanatics can point to scripture for support, and most imams interpret the scriptures in such manner as well.

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I have one friend who is a genius. I don't throw this term around lightly. He is a true intellectual. I look at his library and marvel at his collection. He goes to Philosophy camp every summer for fun. He speaks multiple lanuages. He's the kind of person who read the Koran for the pleasure of it.

I just remember his remarks.. he was struck by the beauty of the book. He and many others echoed the belief that it IS a religion of peace.

The people who use religion for their own ends, ALL study the texts and use the words to their own ends. The KKK cites the Bible for their justifications. The people who handle snakes and drink poison believe they are following the texts. The Crusades and the Inquisition were all following what they believed were the instructions of their faith. To condemn a religion based on the violent actions of some is wrong. If so, we should condemn Christianity which has a long and rich history of war and violence in its name.

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They are the ones studied in Islam; do you really think they are wrong, without (I'm guessing) reading the texts yourself?

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In a sense.. yes. Or to be more accurate... there is no right or wrong. Those who say Islam is a religion of peace are correct; that's what they choose to take from the book. The extremists take what they want and ignore what they don't like to justify their actions.

I don't believe the extremists are really interested in religion. I think, as has been done throughout history, it is people using religion as a tool to motivate and control people. OBL wasn't attacking the US because of his religion. He was attacking the US because of their interference in the Middle East (he said as much when he declared war on the US)... he used religion as a tool to incite his people.

Bush did the same thing when says God tells him to do what he does.

If you read (I keep plugging this book) Under the Banner of Heaven, you'll learn how Mormons used their religion to steal from Christians, Murder people, etc.

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The ultimate goal of Islam is to bring the whole world into alignment with God's wishes and words as spelled out in the Koran--incuding through use of force if need be. This is true intolerance at the deepest philosophical level.


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SEE HISTORY OF CHRISTIANITY. This is true of many religions. As I said, the spread of Christianity has probably led to more wars and killing throughout history then any other religion. Read the Old Testament... it advocates a lot of killing and violence that would compete with Muslims.

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Christianity teaches that women who cheat should NOT be stoned--

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I was referring to Old Testament. I am saying that there are Christians TODAY who believe people should revert back to Old Testament standards.

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Christianity is pacifist in the purest philosophical sense (however many adherents do not realize this).

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New Testament is pacificst. Old Testament isn't. The problem is both books are taught. (One should mention too that the Bible has contradictory teachings. On the one hand it will teach you not to kill. Then it will endorse 'an eye for an eye.' People can find wwhat they want in the book.)

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Islam however is not pacifist philosophically, and is philosophicaly committed to using force if need be to bring about Allah's will on Earth.

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As I said... different Muslims see the fundamental philosophies quite differently. I won't pretend to know which group is right. I only know that, from everything I've read, the majority of Muslims think that the fanatics we read about all the time have perverted their religion. Many have denounced them saying they aren't true followers of the faith. Though I'm not surprised that groups following the same religion can have such different outlooks.

Look at the Bible; Old Testament shared by Jews and Christians. Christianity has Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Quakers, Evangelicals, methodists, Snake Handlers, etc. There are countless divisions of Christianity all with different philosophies and practices... many radically opposed to each other, ALL using the same texts to support their beliefs.

Why should Islam be any different?

[kurto]

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One problem however is that the violent extremists are nevertheless quite numerous.


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True dat.

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Also, especially in the Middle East and parts of Asia, the moderates often hesitate to speak out against the actions of the extremists for fear of incurring personal harm. This is often a reasonable fear on their part.


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There has been some hope. Just with the incursion of Western Culture, there have been pushes for reform in some Islamic nations. (I posted this somewhere.. there had been a story on 60min or similar show recently with a story about music, dancing and women uncovering their faces in one of the countries... women getting jobs and people wanting a non-seculare govt.)

This is my opinion, but George Bush is not good for the cause. He has caused a surge in fanatical conversion. He calls the nations he has political problems with as "EVIL". His 'lone cowboy' attitude reinforces everything bad that they see about our country.

Anyhoo... nice chatting with you.

[MMMMMM]

First, I think it is important to make clear distinction between what the texts actually say, and what followers actually practice. There is a huge difference between the two--in some caees, for better, in some, for worse.

I don't have time now but if I don't have to go out of town next week I may post some scriptures of various religions, to try to illustrate certain points. I don't believe it is entirely subject to interpretation or that all religions essentially say the same thing. I have read a great deal of Buddhism, Zen, and Taoism; and a fair amount of Christianity, and a lesser amount of Judaism and Islam. I think I have a pretty good handle on the general tenets of these religions and while some of it is open to interpretation (and misinterpretation) there are also some very clear and striking philosophical differences.

Short note: The Koran is very heavy with verses enjoining Muslims to do horrible things to non-believers: tortures, killings, subjugation, domination, withholding of friendship, etc. etc. The Koran espouses more violence and conflict towards others than peace, in my opinion, and it's not close. Granted there are some verses towards peace, but even the Koranic view of peace is fundamentally different than the Western view: the Koranic view of peace is: one world at harmony under Allah, following Allah's will. Other allowances and tolerances are stopgap or pragmatic measures.

Also, Muhammad raised armies of conquest and pillage, through the devices of promising his soldiers booty in this world and paradise in the next. Contrast this with Jesus' instructions to turn the other cheek to those who do you ill, to lay up treasures in the kingdom of heaven not in this world, to forgive, etc. Muhammad was a statesman and a warrior through and through and the Koranic injunctions reflect this mindset, whereas the teachings of Jesus emphasize humility and not resisting evil. Truly the philosophical underpinnings of the two religions, as well as the personal historical lives of Muhammad and Jesus, are poles apart (although you wouldn't know it to look at some of the practitioners).

Anyway, enough for now. Good chatting with you.

[ACPlayer]

I don't believe the extremists are really interested in religion. I think, as has been done throughout history, it is people using religion as a tool to motivate and control people.

This is the key statement.

All religions basically say the same thing. They do it using allegory and stories to make their points. Literal interpretation of religious text is dangerous and because of the presentation it is possible to draw many conclusions -- specially when scripture is quoted out of context.

Islam/Christianity/Judaism etc are all dangerous tools in the hands of those who want to use them to further their own agendas. This was so in the history of christianity (and in some areas still is so) and was so and is used in Islam and Judaism today.

An example of a interpretation of the bible where people draw vastly different interpretations is in the area of homosexuality. There are learned Christians who claim that homosexuality is banned and there are others who claim that Christianity is tolerant of gays and could accept gay marriage.

The problem in the Islamic world is, that the sense of persecution felt by some has driven them to accept extremists and incorrect interpretations of Islam.

Those who write off the religion are mistaken. Those who understand that the religion is being misused by some are on the right path.

Just My Opinion.

[bernie]

Nice post.

I think it's funny when religions point the finger at eachother like that. Like their religions are so lilly white. Isn't organized religion fun? Except many will defend their religions' actions as justifiable while the others' actions are just heinous.

Screw 'em all.

b

[bernie]

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Based on the ACTIONS and INACTIONS of its 'pious and righteous' followers, I see nothing to respect from Islam. If the 'pious and rightious' followers of Islam approve of flying planes into buildings and murdering people, I'd sure hate to meet the less pious of their religion.

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Same can be said about the catholic church, can't it? Especially given their past. They have their overzealous fanatics too.

b

[MMMMMM]

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All religions basically say the same thing

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This is an extremely ignorant and erroneous statement. From this it should be presumed that you have never had a course in comparative religion, or done much reading yourself in multiple specific religions.

[ACPlayer]

I stand by my statement.

Each religion has various trappings around a core philosophy that is similar. They all build around the philospohy differently. This is specially true about the monotheist religions.

[zaxx19]

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· Like Muslim Rashid Baz, who opened fire on a van of Hassidic kids on the Brooklyn Bridge in 1994 (one dead).


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Those Hasidic kids were settlers on Oneida Indian tribe lands that were illegally conficated and developed by Dutch, Anglo and finally Jew colonists...therefore they were "legitimate" targets of the heroic muslim freedom fighter(Baz) who was quite obviously only concerned about the evident human rights violations taking place in his midst.

Welcome to the far left world view...next order please.