PLO8 $200 hand

[Mendacious]

I expect we'll be seeing a lot more of the Party aliases.

[gergery]

I don’t think poster’s call was so horrible.

If you are a 35/12 and known to me, then I think I could put you on other hands besides just AAxx here. Why not A23Jds, why not A2JKds – or why not A2KK making a big bluff? It’s not like you don’t have a rep as aggro.

And the chances you have two better spades or two better low given that you have a likely AAxx are pretty slim. If you did have AAK2 with spades, you might just check here to trap anyway. And There are also meta-game considerations – the table will run him over in the future if he folds here.

So I think its reasonable for poster to think ‘I’m probably EV neutral here – maybe worse, but maybe better”

Of course, I think the real reason he called was he thought ‘two pair flush flush draw and low – too good a hand to fold’.

Net I think his call is slightly to mild in badness but not terrible.

[Wintermute]

Maybe "horrible" is a strong word. But when you consider the potential flush higher protection being offered by the third player, this is very clearly a losing play. Sure, some of the time he'll be a 2-1 dog, and maybe 5% of the time he'll be better than EV neutral. But a lot more than 5% of the time he'll be drawing almost completely dead, with his flush draw worthless, and his backdoor low needing other b-door lows to be counterfeited.

The more I think about it, the more I think this was a combination of "my hand looks to nice to fold" and "I'm not going to get run over by this guy because I'm just not" on his part.

But I don't buy the A2KK making a big bluff argument, or that I could reasonably have other than AAxx often enough to make it a good play. After all, keep in mind that he knows that *I know* that he's a 25/7, and so it would be suicide to reraise him preflop w/out an absolute monster, and to bet into a flop that very easily could be a call for him given the odds.

So I'll grant "really bad" instead of "horrible".

[Mendacious]

Do you really consider AA6J DS to be a "monster"?

[Wintermute]

In relation to A23x or A2KK, or the range of his raising hands, yes. In terms of by-hand win rate, absolutely. Correct--omaha doesn't have monster advantages preflop. But in the range of PLO8 hands, this one has to be counted among the strongest.

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising A25 in a game where you get callers GALORE for $9 is just stupid. Trust me when I say, having noticed the players in the game, there are some HUGE fish who will call any raise preflop. He absolutely should raise A2 preflop, but he should also fold it to the reraise and especially on that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably correct. I have been playing a lot at UB and FTP lately which I find a bit tighter than typical party games (FTP is usually a total rock garden), plus I might be falling back into nut peddler mode a little bit (something I have to fight with a little) which is usually OK but I think it is not optimal. I should have considered the game texture more.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe "horrible" is a strong word. But when you consider the potential flush higher protection being offered by the third player, this is very clearly a losing play. Sure, some of the time he'll be a 2-1 dog, and maybe 5% of the time he'll be better than EV neutral. But a lot more than 5% of the time he'll be drawing almost completely dead, with his flush draw worthless, and his backdoor low needing other b-door lows to be counterfeited.

The more I think about it, the more I think this was a combination of "my hand looks to nice to fold" and "I'm not going to get run over by this guy because I'm just not" on his part.

But I don't buy the A2KK making a big bluff argument, or that I could reasonably have other than AAxx often enough to make it a good play. After all, keep in mind that he knows that *I know* that he's a 25/7, and so it would be suicide to reraise him preflop w/out an absolute monster, and to bet into a flop that very easily could be a call for him given the odds.

So I'll grant "really bad" instead of "horrible".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll go as far as "fairly bad", but that's my final offer.

-g

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I'll grant "really bad" instead of "horrible".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll go as far as "fairly bad", but that's my final offer.

-g

[/ QUOTE ]
"Fairly bad" AND "latently gay", and you have a deal.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
I think his PF action is fine. I'd raise where he raised

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont like it at all. He raised early with a really junky hand. People are going to have position and better cards than him when they call every single time. A/2/5/9 is a mediocre hand without the ace high flush draw. He has a 9 high flush draw and he has 3 of the suit so it a terrible draw anyway you look at it, you cant back it completely because a higher flush could be out there and you have your own outs, terrible. Its a full table, this hand is dominated more than it wins, not a good raise. Also while a lot of people do call, the problem is that this hand will rarely hit the flop hard. There are just very few flops that dont suck for it, and assuming people will just roll over and let you pick it up is a bad assumption specially in party, people cant lay down A/2 and you are getting beatdown by any other A/2 most of the time.

edit: should have said greg, why did I type he? need to stop checking my grammar before every post.

[emptyshell]

Fold? I don't play PLO8 to fold. If I wanted to fold I'd play holdem.

One factor that you are neglecting: If you have two aces, bongo doesn't have one. It's not unreasonable that he calls with his wrap straight draw given the good pot odds (probably without a better flush draw just based on card likelihood).

I'd normally assign a greater probability to some hand besides AA despite the reraise, but maybe it's because I make this play (complete with the flop bluff) on occassion, especially against tight players.