Expert Play according to the Table Coach

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I would want to get a better feel for what's going on before making a super-marginal limp OOP. After that, it looks fine. What did CO call with? AK? 55?


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CO had K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I might have an image problem if i'm getting called by Khigh .. especially when I don't remember him making any other CS superloose calls

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ok, sweriously, I tihnk that in had 1 you need to fold Pf. u'll be domenated to offten. If plyers are weak potsflops then i could maybe raise ti. ur postflop pla yis good IMO.

Hadn 2 is kind iffy preflop, but itsokay. AGain, opstflop i sstandard.

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yeah I agree on hand1

hand2 well preflop might be a little -EV but we are talking in terms of nickels and not a lot of them besides postflop is what makes the game fun anyway

[tiltaholic]

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I would want to get a better feel for what's going on before making a super-marginal limp OOP. After that, it looks fine. What did CO call with? AK? 55?


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CO had K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I might have an image problem if i'm getting called by Khigh .. especially when I don't remember him making any other CS superloose calls

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ok, sweriously, I tihnk that in had 1 you need to fold Pf. u'll be domenated to offten. If plyers are weak potsflops then i could maybe raise ti. ur postflop pla yis good IMO.

Hadn 2 is kind iffy preflop, but itsokay. AGain, opstflop i sstandard.

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yeah I agree on hand1

hand2 well preflop might be a little -EV but we are talking in terms of nickels and not a lot of them besides postflop is what makes the game fun anyway

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are you seriously advocating folding A7s preflop after 2 limpers here?

i'm assuming that when you raised you thought they were loose enough to be bad players, and then realized they weren't...

even if they are tightish, don't you think A7s plays well enough here to at least limp and try to keep several people in?

as an aside, my arbitrary cutoff for making these types of value raises is usually A8s for 2 poor limpers. so A7s isn't off the range.

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I would want to get a better feel for what's going on before making a super-marginal limp OOP. After that, it looks fine. What did CO call with? AK? 55?


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CO had K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I might have an image problem if i'm getting called by Khigh .. especially when I don't remember him making any other CS superloose calls

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ok, sweriously, I tihnk that in had 1 you need to fold Pf. u'll be domenated to offten. If plyers are weak potsflops then i could maybe raise ti. ur postflop pla yis good IMO.

Hadn 2 is kind iffy preflop, but itsokay. AGain, opstflop i sstandard.

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yeah I agree on hand1

hand2 well preflop might be a little -EV but we are talking in terms of nickels and not a lot of them besides postflop is what makes the game fun anyway

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are you seriously advocating folding A7s preflop after 2 limpers here?

i'm assuming that when you raised you thought they were loose enough to be bad players, and then realized they weren't...

even if they are tightish, don't you think A7s plays well enough here to at least limp and try to keep several people in?

as an aside, my arbitrary cutoff for making these types of value raises is usually A8s for 2 poor limpers. so A7s isn't off the range.

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agreed. but the question is... do you want anybody behind you limping in?

[PokerSlut]

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agreed. but the question is... do you want anybody behind you limping in?

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Considering I am playing A7s mostly for flush value, yes.

[Redd]

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agreed. but the question is... do you want anybody behind you limping in?

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Considering I am playing A7s mostly for flush value, yes.

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I want everyone limping in behind me at microlimits, but not because I play my A7s mostly for flush value. I just know that whatever they limp with is probably a dog to my hand, so I'm fine with it.

[Redd]

Hey set, how many hands were you reads on in hand 1? That 9/3 totally shouldn't be in the pot here unless things are quite unconverged.

So if you were planning on folding the turn UI, why call the flop with 3 outs? Whatever he bet with OOP on the flop he'll probably continue with on the turn, winning or otherwise. If you folded UI here you just would have spent an extra SB before folding the best hand.

I fold pf in hand noumner to.

[Aaron W.]

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How is preflop wrong in hand two? Preflop is great. He has a hand with a bit of top pair value, that is suited and connected on a table that is loose and sees few pre flop raises. These are ideal conditions to play mid suited connectors like T9s and 98s in EP, yes you lack position, but knowledge of the the players at the table and how to play the situations that will come up will help to minimize any disadvantages you have.

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Even under ideal conditions, limping 98s UTG is marginal. I think you underestimate the value of position with these hands. It's very hard to minimize a positional disadvantage against multiple loose passive players.

so you wouldn't play A7s PF for the top pair value? with two limpers in front of you wouldn't it be likely that you're ahead? does that mean you would check/fold if you dont hit your flush draw on the flop?

i just thought it would be better to raise MP with two limpers because it would drive out the weaker, but stronger A than you (A8 through maybe ATo if passive enough) in which case you'd be buying outs. not only that this raise would set up the flop aggression. am i wrong in thinking this?

[Redd]

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so you wouldn't play A7s PF for the top pair value? with two limpers in front of you wouldn't it be likely that you're ahead? does that mean you would check/fold if you dont hit your flush draw on the flop?

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I'm actually saying that I don't just play for flush value. In most circumstances, I play pretty aggressively if I hit either of my pair outs with A7s. This is of course highly situational, which is exemplified by this hand where I don't hate calling TPMK with our read on Villain.

You're absolutely right that we may have the best hand after two 'typical' limpers in a micro game (note that this is less likely to be true against the limpers specified in this particular hand). And check-folding if I hit a hand weaker than a flush draw (ie, TP hand) is not my normal play. It happens to me occasionally, but not often.

My point is that it's unwise to call suited aces just for flush value. Since flush-over-flush is so rare (I don't know the exact numbers but I'd estimate it happens <15% of the time? Anyone have time for combinatrix?), we usually don't need to worry much if our flush is the nut flush or not. Sure, it's great to be able to play aggressively with the nuts, but T5s is going to make almost as many winning flushes as A7s. Since A7s is a common limp and T5s is usually a mistake, we must be playing for more than just flush value with Axs.

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i just thought it would be better to raise MP with two limpers because it would drive out the weaker, but stronger A than you (A8 through maybe ATo if passive enough) in which case you'd be buying outs. not only that this raise would set up the flop aggression. am i wrong in thinking this?

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This is partially true IMO. If I were raising this hand, I'm usually trying to isolate a looser EP player here, since my hand is a big favorite against his range. So a raise is simultaneously trying to get folds from better, dominating hands and calls from weaker hands that we have an equity edge against.

Note that both of these won't necessarily happen at once, and quite often only one or the other will happen. Generally in low limit games, forcing an opponent make a bad fold is tougher than forcing an opponent to make a bad call. I usually raise weakish hands preflop (say ATo), expecting cold-calls from many hands, only a small fraction of which dominate me. So while it's true that we're trying to fold better hands, IMO it's more important to extract value from worse ones at microlimits. In this particular hand, I don't like a raise because the chances that we're dominated by one of the tight EP limpers is high enough that I don't think that we have the equity to do so. This hand is actually a poor example of a typical microlimit game for me to answer your questions with, because the two limpers have such low VPIPs.

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So while it's true that we're trying to fold better hands, IMO it's more important to extract value from worse ones at microlimits. In this particular hand, I don't like a raise because the chances that we're dominated by one of the tight EP limpers is high enough that I don't think that we have the equity to do so. This hand is actually a poor example of a typical microlimit game for me to answer your questions with, because the two limpers have such low VPIPs.

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agreed. but i just think it makes this hand a lot easier if you raise. sometimes the headache/stress you avoid postflop by raising is worth the small +EV you're giving up IMO. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]