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#1
11-26-2005, 07:07 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
okay....i'm seeing the light.
additionally....you might be able to steal it from QQ if any K or A hits the flop. But you'd have to be pretty lucky here of course...like K-high flop and your opponents have QQ and AQ. Or A-high flop and your opponents have KQ and KK (and would actually be subject to laying down an under-pair...which isn't that impossible if you cap PF). This isn't the reason to cap of coruse. Just pointing out that it doesn't HAVE to be an all under-card flop for you to win it obviously....there are still some slim possibilities even with an overcard out there. 
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#2
11-26-2005, 07:11 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it. [/ QUOTE ] PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation. -James [/ QUOTE ] I agree with all of this. I was really shocked seeing so many people say folding was standard here.
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#3
11-26-2005, 11:36 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it. [/ QUOTE ] PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation. -James [/ QUOTE ] I think this scenario really separates the looser TAGs and the tigher TAGs. Most of us don't play in games with small player pools and the metagame stuff doesn't really apply. I think your hand ranges may be a bit too broad given that the raisers were both in early position. Didn't David and Mason cover this in one of their books? I recall them saying fold but I can't find it and don't feel like digging. Pretty close given your hand ranges. equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 26.9092 % 25.75% 01.15% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo } Hand 2: 38.3336 % 36.91% 01.42% { 99+, AQs+, AKo } Hand 3: 34.7572 % 33.90% 00.86% { JJ }
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#4
11-27-2005, 02:09 AM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it. [/ QUOTE ] PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation. -James [/ QUOTE ] I think this scenario really separates the looser TAGs and the tigher TAGs. Most of us don't play in games with small player pools and the metagame stuff doesn't really apply. I think your hand ranges may be a bit too broad given that the raisers were both in early position. Didn't David and Mason cover this in one of their books? I recall them saying fold but I can't find it and don't feel like digging. Pretty close given your hand ranges. equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 26.9092 % 25.75% 01.15% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo } Hand 2: 38.3336 % 36.91% 01.42% { 99+, AQs+, AKo } Hand 3: 34.7572 % 33.90% 00.86% { JJ } [/ QUOTE ] But online 50/100 games have far smaller player pools than lower limits from this, and that is the game that the OP cited. David and Mason were also referring to the live games of the nineties and earlier that played far less aggressively preflop on average than today's high limit online games. Also, your EV calculations are helpful, but also misleading because they run hot and cold. For example, a lot of times AT or AJ will check fold the flop when it comes Q high against your jacks. Position and momentum go a long way even in high limit games. You can win a hand without reaching the showdown against every hand that saw the flop. Do I fold jacks to a raise and a 3 bet from time to time? Yes, I do. Do I when a guy raises in middle position and another guy reraises in late middle position? Not as often, but I will. I am simply stating that when I play 50/100 and higher, and all I know about my opponents are those stats, I'm in there capping, if only because it's(at worst) an EV neutral proposition and it works towards giving me the aggressive image I benefit from at the table. -James
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#6
11-28-2005, 08:23 AM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
"I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time." I know you will flop a set 12%, is it true that the flop will be all cards under a J 48%, that seems high
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#7
11-28-2005, 11:52 AM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation. -James [/ QUOTE ] Are they making distinctions between capping headsup with JJ and folding JJ when threebet in a multiway pot before the action gets to you? If they are that good at making notes, I may never be ready for the 50/100 game. Let me put it this way, if, for example, you do cap heads up down to 10's or nines and with various combinations of face cards depending on the opponent, and multiway only down to queens and with A-K suited and sometimes A-K off, are the players good enough to know that your hand is no worse than A-K when you cap in a multiway pot? Which is another way of saying, I'm not sure that folding here necessarily translates into one only caps with Aces or Kings. I make the JJ fold in this situation very frequently, but then I play much lower than 50/100 and I'm not that concerned with the meta-game. --Zetack
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#8
11-27-2005, 02:56 AM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
I cap. -James [/ QUOTE ] Thanks god. I've folded JJ before and would do it again, but not in this game, not in this situation. Rob
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#9
11-27-2005, 07:15 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
I'm happy to see some discussion on this. It's been a really informative thread.
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#10
11-26-2005, 05:33 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
I am not really sure how you can get away from this hand preflop unless you know for sure you are up against AA-QQ. This is a no doubt cap for me. In the long term this hand will make plenty of money in situations such as these. You gotta be in it to win!
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