Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs - Page 3

#1 10-03-2005, 05:43 PM

I don't think this is horrible. But, what happens when someone in LP limps, SB completes, BB checks, and flop comes down with at least one over and no 8? Come to think of it, what happens if it folds to BB who checks and flop comes with an over? This hand is just too hard to play postflop. If you're playing for set value, the 5/10 rule for cash games says that this is your own decision, leaning towards a fold--since this is a tourny, this is a clear fold if only set value is considered. Thus, there's really no excuse for allowing yourself to see a flop with 88 here. This is push/fold, and 7-handed, I push this.

Pat Southern · #2 10-03-2005, 06:45 PM

I like it without antes, hate it with antes.

AtticusFinch · #3 10-04-2005, 12:54 AM

Looks reasonable to me. If you only had like 6 or 7 bb I'd think otherwise, but here, it looks fine.

I'd be inclined to call most single pushes, but fold if there's a push and a call behind.

Jason Strasser · #4 10-04-2005, 05:31 AM

Uhh maybe I'm retarded and sloppy but if I have 10bb and 88 and am first person not to fold I'm all in every time, including UTG 9-handed. Limping and folding to a raise seems like a terrible plan because people will push hands like ATo, QJ and worse and lower pairs when you limp. I guess if you are thinking really big picture and you are in a tournament where Shania counts for something then maybe you can limp with a bunch of hands here and make it work.... But this is a stars 22 which makes this impossible.

Oh yeah, when you raise you can also win the blinds!

I hate pratt,
-Jason

EverettKings · #5 10-04-2005, 12:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh maybe I'm retarded and sloppy but if I have 10bb and 88 and am first person not to fold I'm all in every time, including UTG 9-handed. Limping and folding to a raise seems like a terrible plan because people will push hands like ATo, QJ and worse and lower pairs when you limp. I guess if you are thinking really big picture and you are in a tournament where Shania counts for something then maybe you can limp with a bunch of hands here and make it work.... But this is a stars 22 which makes this impossible.

Oh yeah, when you raise you can also win the blinds!

I hate pratt,
-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh shoes,

For a $150+12 you're absolutely right. I already said that I autojam in, say, a wcoop event or any event where I think my opponents are decent, aggressive players. But here in a stars 22 (which I've probably played a lot more of than you [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]) I think you see a lot fewer raises than you should. So the limp's not awful to consider 8 or 9 way.

The ENTIRE point of this post was that everyone's gut (including mine) gives the automatic response of "push this shiznit". But here, in this PARTICULAR spot, I felt uneasy-- like there might be a better play. This is how I improve my poker game, by rethinking "automatic" situations to see where I can improve, or if in this particular spot, a less-intuitive line would be more favorable. Un-automatic plays in the right spots can win tournaments. I'm sure you agree. (And FWIW I already posted that I agreed with the push here)

And dont even f***ing tell me that Pratt sucks. I'm one problem set from throwing up.

Everett

AtticusFinch · #6 10-04-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is how I improve my poker game, by rethinking "automatic" situations to see where I can improve, or if in this particular spot, a less-intuitive line would be more favorable. Un-automatic plays in the right spots can win tournaments. I'm sure you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent. Much as I appreciate developing a standard line with good reasoning behind it, we still need to mix up our play to avoid being too predictable, and test the boundaries to see if the standard line can be refined.

ziggydonks · #7 10-04-2005, 02:45 PM

ok Evee, i acknowledge your point now, but i still jam it here every time

have i mentioned how much i enjoy not being in pratt?
KY

Jason Strasser · #8 10-04-2005, 03:50 PM

Yeah yeah yeah I just dont see how I can limp then fold. That was my buggaboo.

It's not like they are only pushing with 99+.... You gotta call any all in I'd think with the blinds as padding to the pot. Thats my problem...

-Jason

fnurt · #9 10-04-2005, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah yeah yeah I just dont see how I can limp then fold. That was my buggaboo.

It's not like they are only pushing with 99+.... You gotta call any all in I'd think with the blinds as padding to the pot. Thats my problem...

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's assume you are always going to call a raise. Does it therefore follow that you are ALWAYS best to just open-push?

It seems to me that there are certain hands, most notably low pairs, that will not call an all-in, but will give you action if you limp or raise a smaller amount. With a relatively short stack, you probably should welcome action in a favorable situation, rather than simply trying to maximize your chance of winning the blinds.

Look at it this way. There are times when check-calling is more profitable on the river than simply betting out. Isn't limping UTG, with the intention of calling a raise, a similar situation? Sometimes it could be right for the same reasons.

EverettKings · #10 10-04-2005, 07:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah yeah yeah I just dont see how I can limp then fold. That was my buggaboo.

It's not like they are only pushing with 99+.... You gotta call any all in I'd think with the blinds as padding to the pot. Thats my problem...

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's assume you are always going to call a raise. Does it therefore follow that you are ALWAYS best to just open-push?

It seems to me that there are certain hands, most notably low pairs, that will not call an all-in, but will give you action if you limp or raise a smaller amount. With a relatively short stack, you probably should welcome action in a favorable situation, rather than simply trying to maximize your chance of winning the blinds.

Look at it this way. There are times when check-calling is more profitable on the river than simply betting out. Isn't limping UTG, with the intention of calling a raise, a similar situation? Sometimes it could be right for the same reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get your point BUT I think that limp-calling gets you far more races with AT/KJs type hands here than it gets you dominated situations. In those cases the 3k in blinds and 700 in antes are far to valuable to encourage action. And thats what this particular spot comes down to: 3700 in the pot, 20k stack, and 6 other folks.

However...

This push begs the question.... is 88 any different from 22 here? With the exception of maybe 88 itself, you get the same calls and are in the same spot. I mean 22 "feels" like a fold to me, but it should feel the same as 88 here. So does that make 22 a push? If not, why?

Everett