My Nemesis - AJo

[Irishboy]

My thinking was exactly like yours on the flop.

As for the turn, it seemed so fishy. I feel like I have probably made $1,000 in the last month alone by raising the turn when a scary card hits and the guy bets in to me. If someone really improved to two pair or better, they will check-raise you 95% of the time. This was a case of the 5%. Even the worst donkeys will check-raise you on the turn when they catch their 2 pair.

The 3-bet on the turn was a neon-sign that this was a 5% case and my clue to lay it down.

[Kevin J]

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I feel like I have probably made $1,000 in the last month alone by raising the turn when a scary card hits and the guy bets in to me.

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I agree with you on this, but the problem here is that the 9d isn't a scary card. So it either helped him in some way or nothing has changed. The question is how problematic is getting 3-bet? I'd say if you're compelled to pay it off then it's too problematic, so why subject yourself to it? If you can safely fold, then it's no problem as TStoneMBD states.

[teddyFBI]

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i thought we were all under the assumption that a PP is a donkey who will never fold a pair and is pretty much incapable of intelligent play.

i really feel that the posts on here are results oriented. maybe i am missing a key element in this hand and have some of the conformed theories on this forum confused. if this was any other combination of hand, you would all be screaming to raise for value.

now, if you want to say that you should simply call down after you are bet into on the turn, i can certainly understand that. raising the turn is a much more controversal play, but i simply cannot understand how you guys could advocate smooth calling this flop. it seems entirely inconsistent with every other thought that runs through this forum.

you guys are all telling me that you should smooth call the flop, smooth call the turn, and smooth call the river? you dont want to raise anywhere in the hand?

What the hell is going on!

ps, i was dead on right about villain having A9. shouldnt that show that you should be raising this flop for value since you will be up against a smaller ace almost every time?

where is nate tha great when you need him?

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Hey MBD: I definitely agree with raising the flop (get the SB out now), but what if the SB weren't in this hand? In that case, I'm not so sure that smooth calling every street wouldn't be a viable option. As another poster wrote it's a way ahead or way behind scenario, right? So raise the flop, and you MIGHT chase out A-weak or something like TT/88 trying to represent the A, but a 6 (though unlikely) will make you pay the max...so i'm not so sure smoothcalling every street would be all that crazy (without the SB in the hand that is).

[James282]

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Hey MBD: I definitely agree with raising the flop (get the SB out now), but what if the SB weren't in this hand? In that case, I'm not so sure that smooth calling every street wouldn't be a viable option.

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I feel like I'm living in a crazy house. Why do you guys want the SB out now!??!?!?!?!?!?!? He is almost definitely drawing dead to runner runner, there is a minute chance he is already ahead, and also a small chance he has 2-4 outs, in which case, who gives a damn if he calls 1 bet? You get the same "value" without giving up pretty much any equity on this street. Then you get to the turn and you can get an additional small bet out of the BB donk and possibly a full BB extra from the SB if he wants to keep drawing.

Facts:
1) The SB will take one off with a small pair
2) The SB will see a showdown with an ace, allowing you to collect 2 BB on the turn.
3) He may or may not call with some crappy backdoor flush or straight draw.

The pot has 8 Small bets in it when the action gets to you on the flop. In order to make "getting the SB out now" correct, it would need to increase your equity by about 1/8 or %12. The only way that this is possible if he has a small pair and a spade, will call down with a draw to a fourflush for 2 bets on the turn, and the BB does not have a bigger spade in his hand.

I think this is a perfect spot to slowplay your fairly invulnerable holding.
-James

[James282]

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i thought we were all under the assumption that a PP is a donkey who will never fold a pair and is pretty much incapable of intelligent play.

i really feel that the posts on here are results oriented. maybe i am missing a key element in this hand and have some of the conformed theories on this forum confused. if this was any other combination of hand, you would all be screaming to raise for value.

now, if you want to say that you should simply call down after you are bet into on the turn, i can certainly understand that. raising the turn is a much more controversal play, but i simply cannot understand how you guys could advocate smooth calling this flop. it seems entirely inconsistent with every other thought that runs through this forum.

you guys are all telling me that you should smooth call the flop, smooth call the turn, and smooth call the river? you dont want to raise anywhere in the hand?

What the hell is going on!

ps, i was dead on right about villain having A9. shouldnt that show that you should be raising this flop for value since you will be up against a smaller ace almost every time?

where is nate tha great when you need him?

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Are you crazy? Who implied that you shouldn't raise the turn after calling the flop? I thought it was dreadfully obvious that the reason you call the flop is because you almost definitely have the best hand and you want to get more value out of it.
-James

[Kevin J]

"i thought we were all under the assumption that a PP is a donkey who will never fold a pair and is pretty much incapable of intelligent play."

I agree there are some real idiots, but I also see some fairly sophisticated play on Party. Am I the only one? Maybe I need to practice better game selection. ??

"i really feel that the posts on here are results oriented."

Not from me, I assure you.

"it seems entirely inconsistent with every other thought that runs through this forum."

For good or bad, my thoughts are often contrary to the thoughts that run through this forum.

"you guys are all telling me that you should smooth call the flop, smooth call the turn, and smooth call the river? you dont want to raise anywhere in the hand?"

I would sometimes play the hand exactly like that. So yes.

"What the hell is going on!"

Hopefully, a productive thread that includes differing thoughts and ways this hand could've been played.

"ps, i was dead on right about villain having A9."

Yes, this is the most logical hand when he 3-bets the turn. But you won't always be right and sometimes he'll have a flush draw or some other hand you shouldn't fold to.

[riffraff]

I don't like the river raise as you have shown much strength throughout the hand and yet he still bets into you at the river. I like the way you played the rest of the hand.

I'm guessing he had A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or maybe 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Something like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is also possible but I think he would have 3-bet you on the turn with that.

He's got to be pretty stubborn if he stayed to the river with 99.

[Irishboy]

he had A9 for the turned two pair.

I called both the turn 3-bet and the river bet for a net loss of $60 unecessarily lost dollars.

Combine this with my other JJ post in which I laid down the best hand in a $700 pot and I'm -25 BB's right there...calling down with the loser and laying down the winner is not a good way to help the ol' winrate.

[astroglide]

folding jacks didn't cost you $700. if you thought the chance was 100% that you were beaten and it was really an 80% chance, that's the difference of what you lost.

[SA125]

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folding jacks didn't cost you $700. if you thought the chance was 100% that you were beaten and it was really an 80% chance, that's the difference of what you lost.

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Well said.