Bush and his Father

[MaxPower]

Does Kerry claim to be a man of the people?

Two funny things about Bush. One I heard from Bill Maher. Bush criticizes Kerry for being a "Washington Insider". Uh, George, you are the president. You don't get any more inside than that. Being a Washington insider means you are close to the president. When you are the president you are by definition a Washington insider.

Second, when Bob Woodword mentions to Bush that many of his friends had concerns about the aftermath and long term consequences of the War on Iraq, Bush tells Woodward that it is because Woodward is one of the elite. OK, your father was President, you went to Andover and Yale, you were Governor of Texas and President of the US. These things don't make you part of the Elite?

Is Bush trying to present a certain image of himself for political purposes or does he really believe these things about himself? I don't know, but I find it funny.

[Boris]

I don't get it. Why does the government have to lie?

[andyfox]

I agree that merely saying one gets strength from God is not a problem. But saying it and then acting on it is a problem. It's what the hijackers believed, that it was ordained by their God that what they were doing was right. It's what bin Laden believes.

Now you have a man who's the President of the United States who believes it. And he is acting on it. He belives, according to his closest friends, that this is the ultimate battle of good vs. evil. And he has started a preemptive war against the evildoers. He started using that very term a few days after he read the term in the bible.

I'm not using a special case to generalize. I'm saying Bush is dangerous because of his belief. I used other examples to show how the belief system works.

[Josh W]

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I had posted before on Bush's belief that he is getting direction from God.



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Like I said earlier, forgive me if I'm jumping in late here...I'm just trying to find out what about that quote (source of his strength) is so bothersome...

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But I also find danger in him getting strength from God.



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Why? AH, look, here's the answer...


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Throughout history, those who claimed they were getting either strength or direction from God have wreaked havoc on those who they felt were non-believers in the correct God.

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See, here's where you and I differ. Who, throughout history, has claimed getting strength AND NOT DIRECTION from God? Who among this short list has created havoc?

Bin Laden et al got direction from their god. And whether or not Bush does is not shown IN THIS QUOTE/THREAD. Strength and direction are entirely different.

I'm leaning towards voting for Kerry. I'm still very undecided. And I believe it was you who said you'd vote against Bush, more than for Kerry, saying you'd hold your nose as you vote.

And, I'm guessing you write a lot of stuff here as some light-weight propoganda, hoping that it may persuade a few more to vote the same way as you. I have no problem with this at all. Honestly.

But if you dislike Bush that much, there must be some REAL REASONS for it, so you don't need to try to manufacture some by adding words ("direction") where there are none...

I guess my whole reason for bringing this up has little to do with Bush, and a lot more to do with God.

Bush said he gets his STRENGTH from God. To me, that's admirable. I, too, get my strength from God. And, I know that through life, the closer I am to God, the stronger I am.

Leaders should be strong. I'd vote for an anemic quadraplegic who gets his/her strength from God before I'd vote for an atheistic Adonis. One has strength. The other has nothing.

Josh

[Matty]

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Referring to his father, the former president, Geroge W. Bush told Bob Woodward, "He is the wrong frather to appeal to in terms of strength; there is a higher father that I appealed to."

God, that's frightening.



[/ QUOTE ]Funny, God told the Pope and I to protest the war. What the [censored] is that guy up there doing to us?

[jokerswild]

Besides the fact that Bush was not elected President, I find it frightening that someone who is so red white and blue (unless it's worshiping murderers like Tony Accardo) would find the current administration anything other than a total anathema to the constitution of the USA. Maybe you are heavily invested in Halliburton, Bechtel, and the Carlylye group. The Bush family is. That makes the phony WMD be seen in a completely different light.

[MMMMMM]

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I agree that merely saying one gets strength from God is not a problem. But saying it and then acting on it is a problem. It's what the hijackers believed, that it was ordained by their God that what they were doing was right. It's what bin Laden believes.

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Again you seem to be (unintentionally) muddying the water by glossing over the distinction between getting strength and getting specific direction. If one gets strength from God to fight cancer, then acts on it, that isn't a problem.

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Now you have a man who's the President of the United States who believes it. And he is acting on it. He belives, according to his closest friends, that this is the ultimate battle of good vs. evil. And he has started a preemptive war against the evildoers. He started using that very term a few days after he read the term in the bible.

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Well, if you look at the Koran and at the history of Muhammad, I don't see how you could think that there isn't something evil in the violence against non-believers which is repeatedly espoused therein. Furthermore, even if there isn't anything inherently evil about Islam, since Islam is meant to be inextricably entwined with government, it generally leads to an evil form of government. That isn't its goal, but that's what it does, since in literal Islam there is no room for the secular. The goal of Islam, besides personal submission to God, is to bring the worldly under the control of God as well. Secularizing government from Islam is an immensely difficult task, because Islam really has no space in its worldview for that. It's rather amazing that secularization has succeeded in limited fashion in Turkey.

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I'm not using a special case to generalize. I'm saying Bush is dangerous because of his belief. I used other examples to show how the belief system works.

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What you've done is expand the specific case of Bush's beliefs to the general, IMO, and used this expansion to criticize the very general, e.g., to criticize getting strength from God and acting on it. As mentioned above, a cancer patient can do that too, which is in no way a problem, and which may actually be a good thing.

Your problem seems to be with the Manichean worldview, which is more specific, and with Bush's views in particular. However bear in mind that any philosophy which calls for violence against non-believers may indeed be partially evil, so if the other side does not hold the same prescription, one side's worldview may actually be more moral or less evil than the other. Just because both sides think the other is evil does not mean that one side is not more correct than the other (e.g. Hitler thought he was fighting for good, and against the evil Jews; we thought he was doing evil. The existence of such opposing views does not imply that both sides are equally right, nor that Hitler's view and actions were not evil.)

So IMO Bush is actually partially correct, although he may understand it in more simple terms. Islam espouses violence against non-believers, the oppression of women, the forced dominance of the Islamic theology, the complete marriage of Mosque and State...how can you say those are not evil precepts? At the very least you must agree that attempting to put those precepts into practice leads to evil results.

Moreover, the actual terrorists are indeed, and unquestionably, "evil-doers." So overall Bush is actually pretty much correct although the reasons for his beliefs are not as scientific as you would care to see.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Funny, God told the Pope and I to protest the war.

Not only that, but he also told Mohammad Atta et. al. to fly those planes into the WTC.

[superleeds]

Just my 2c

In a secular system of government the president should never invoke a spiritual power. It will be used as a propaganda tool.

'Look at the US, they wish to replace our faith with theirs. That is their motive and that is why the infidels must be destroyed, blah blah blah.

[andyfox]

You, sir, are a very good reader, in a number of senses, as I'm sure you know. I need to be very careful in placing my bets.

And you know I mean this as a compliment.

Bush believes that he's on a mission. That we are the good and righteous and that our opponents are evildoers. He takes his inspiration for this viewpoint from the Bible. Jesus Christ is not just his source of strength, his religious views color his assessment of the world situation. He believes we are on a crusade against the evildoers. I have not manufactured this out of whole cloth. His closest friends told this to the authors of a Hoover Institution (right-leaning think tank very sympathetic to the Bush administration) study about Bush's faith.

Bush credits his faith with amending his own evil ways, when he was a younger, wilder version of his current self; in paticular, he credits his faith with weaning him from alcoholism.

So his faith plays an important part in his life. And he extends that to his "calling." He talks about the United States' destiny, its mission. It's dangerous stuff.

I haven't, either on thess pages or anywhere else, hidden my "real reasons" for opposing Mr. Bush. It's his policies. His tax cuts helped me a great deal, but not those who needed help more than I. His environmental policy is hideous. The lies and distortions that led to the war in Iraq are monumental. The unpreparedness of our trooops, because of Rumsfeld's inability to listen except when he himself is doing the talkiing, is well-documented. Afghanistan has fallen by the wayside, rapidly deterioriating into near-disaster, with Taliban and other warlords controling more and more of the country, making it once again an excellentg breeding ground for terrorism. The administration is filled with "vulcans" (Condi Rice's term) who were hellbent on invading Iraq well before 9/11; Perle and Cheney and Wolfowitz had been calling for it for a long time.

Leaders should indeed be strong. I have no problem with a leader getting his strength from an appropriate role model. While I am not Christian, and have, at best, a rudimentary understanding of Jesus's teachings, my sense is that he is a wonderful role model.

But to take that and then translate it into a viewpoint of the world that mirrors the other side's, namely, that God is on our side, invites disaster.

BTW, no propaganda, just a bunch of guys discussing politics, sports, poetry, and other things that interest us.

Anyway, never mind all this crap, how's the poker going?

Regards,
Andy