I quess i suck at 30/60.

[Steve Giufre]

You brought up a pretty important point in your post. Even though are certainly times I will bet my AK or AQ on the turn again in the spot you mentioned, you really cant pound hands through like you can a lot of the time in the 15-30 game. I do know that Peter rarely if ever checks a turn in a heads up or even three handed situation on the turn after raising preflop. Nobody fires again in these tough A and K high spots than you do. I think why is starts to get tricky in this game is because now when you bet your AK into a J 6 2 board and get smooth called in two spots by typical players, they just dont have K10 and A9 anymore. So I agree that we have to slow down in a lot of the same situations where it would probably be correct to keep pushing in the 15-30 game.

Anyhow Peter if I had to venture a guess I'd say 90% of your problems revolve around the fact you probably arnt running all that well.

[Turning Stone Pro]

I would agree that Pete is just not running well. While this may be an obvious point, I don't think there is a single determinative factor that is more important to winning for good, solid players than hitting TP with AK or AQ on a regular basis. When I am hitting, it seems like I can't lose. When I'm not, it seems like I can't win. I think Pete is just going through a strech of the latter.

That's why IMO it is critical to, when not hitting these hands, to lose as little as possible to the typical PP donkey. If a solid, thinking player cold-calls preflop after an EP raise, this is a good hand with high cards, or a medium pair. When the typical PP crowd does it, it usually means T8s, J9s, etc., which does hit a lot of flops that AQ and AK miss.

TSP

[Steve Giufre]

good post.

[4thstreetpete]

hey Peter, I've played a lot with you at the 15/30 and now the 30/60s (if you are who I think you are). I have no doubt in my mind that you are just running bad, however like everyone has said the 30/60 game is a LOT different than the 15/30.
I've seen you take your hands way too far. You have good starting hand requirements but I think you're bleeding a lot of chips postflop. There have been many times while playing against you I have checked to you KNOWING that you will never give a free card on the turn, only to checkraise you and pick up a few extra chips. This is my opinion only but I think you are way too predictable.

Again tho, 30K hands isn't much and a quick upswing will easily fix those numbers.

I'm still however questioning how profitable the 30/60 is though. A lot of the times the tables become a blind stealing war. People steal with anything. Last night I lost a huge pot heads up to someone who tried to steal my blind with 23 off (WTF?), while I had KK. He made the wheel on the river and it costed me the maximum.
It appears the 15/30 is still more profitable. I think it's extremely difficult to be making more than 2bb's in 30/60 over a long period of time except for the very top players, people aren't just bleeding chips like crazy like they do in the 15/30 games although there's still so many horrible players at the 30/60.

I have dropped from playing 6 tables of 30/60 and focusing on playing 4 tables very well instead. So far things have gone well so I'll be hitting 6 tables again shortly. The swings however is a lot bigger than I'm used to. You could be playing well (or even not playing at all because of bad starting hands) and find yourself down quite a bit of money.

[Jeff W]

Eh, I thought -.22/-.14 in the blinds was par for the course in mid stakes games.

[4thstreetpete]

[ QUOTE ]
Over the last two weeks we have played quite a bit of 30 60 together, and I did notice that you were playing decent starting hands, but that you were definately going too far with them when you missed the flop.

For example, if you raise PF and a player or two calls two cold, and you have AK or AQ, and the flop comes T93 or something to this effect, you have to figure that this hit one or both of these guys. You can't keep betting into these boards, not with this type of opponent. They don't know you, they don't respect you, and they will call you down with any type of pair.

In other words, my experience has been that the 30 game is entirely a game for experts at post-flop play. All my bulls**t aside, I'm ahead about 500 bb in three weeks, focusing on playing well post-flop and not overplaying two high cards when the flop misses, especially out of position. These folks will not fold in the face of heat -- you have to be patient and make them pay when you do flop TPGK, and not waste bets when you don't.

This is another reason why I only play one table at a time. I just don't think that this is the type of game that you can play optimally by not watching what every player is doing all the time. I also don't think the stats give you enough information on what each player does at each stage of the hand. I like to have detailed notes on each player, regarding their PF, flop, and turn play. The river plays itself. I feel the only real good way to do this is to watch the game I am in very carefully, and take detailed notes.

Multi-table experts like Guifre and James have a different take on this than I do, but I don't mind losing some equity if I know that I am watching the game I am in with extreme attention. For me personally, I feel this is the best way I can 'control' swings and the luck factor.

Good Luck, I know you will get back on track soon.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, TSP. This is something that I've been thinking about a lot lately and one of the major reasons why I dropped in tables. There were times that I felt something 'strange' was happening, either that or my opponents had really great notes on me.

I've committed to cutting down on tables and focusing more on taking great notes especially postflop play from my opponents like ie. who will definately bet out if checked to, who will most likely raise the flop for a free card , who will not fold on river no matter what etc.... 4 tables suits me fine right now though as I'm feeling pretty good, and I'm looking to add more tables later on.

I think this is definately the way to go as you don't have to have a monster bb/100 hand average to make good money on the 30/60 tables. I've stopped thinking about the money when I play 30/60 now and focusing on the bb's, like everytime I lose a bb when I make a mistake or earn a bb when I make a good play, etc always trying to squeeze out the extra bet.

[YoureToast]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, I thought -.22/-.14 in the blinds was par for the course in mid stakes games.

[/ QUOTE ]

me too...i thought they might actually be good.

[Peter_rus]

I had -0.2/-0.15 at 15/30 after around 200K hands. At 30/60 SB must loose lesser and BB due to increased PFR more so i guess -0.23/-0.13 is good at least for me. Though my close to button positions seems to win too low.

[Peter_rus]

My SD is 16.15 BB/100.

[Peter_rus]

Please don't compare blinds stats for SH-play to game between 7 and 10 players on a table in case you do so. Blinds loose way more in full game than in SH.