Is it good to stay in the red zone?

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah. Your problem is that you think BB/hand matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

well. yeah. it matter that i'm trying to win as many chips as possible. certain stack sizes DO have strategic advantages.

[/ QUOTE ]

The strategic advantage in tems of BB/hand of a smaller stack over larger can't possibly be larger than the difference in stack size. This thread is ridiculous. I'm done.

[pfkaok]

of course it doesn't make up for it. thats why you wouldn't take a gamble where you're 90-100% to lose. but a 50/50 gamble might be worth it EV-wise if by taking it you'll either be huge stacked or redzoned.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is ridiculous

[/ QUOTE ]

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
This thread is ridiculous


[/ QUOTE ]

what's ridiculous is that nobody is even taking the time to think about this concept that betgo presented. seriously. its really Fing frustrating when all you guys say is the same thing over again. some stupid, sarcastic remark about "yeah, i'll just give away half my chips, blah, blah". just b/c this is something you haven't thought of doesn't mean that you can't take the time to acutally THINK about a new different concept.

this is very similar to the gigabet stack size thread from a while ago. i know i'm nowhere near the player he is, but i'm really starting to feel like he must have felt then, when a thread that could be very interesting starts and then just turns into a bunch of people being extremely stubborn.

[adanthar]

I had a bigger flame written out but I decided to delete it in the interests of keeping the peace and not abusing the blue title thing, so I'll make it simple: the 'concept' that 5 BB is better than 10 BB because it makes your future decisions easier is stupid, period, has nothing to do with the Gigabet hand (look at his stack size) and the fact that you called off 20 BB as a relatively big dog because you can play theoretically simpler poker when you lose shows that you have a very long way to go to understand this game.

I don't pretend to be a poker genius myself and I don't mean to be insulting, but you just typed out the card game equivalent of somebody defending teaching intelligent design in a science classroom.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
the 'concept' that 5 BB is better than 10 BB because it makes your future decisions easier is stupid, period,

[/ QUOTE ]

this is NOT the concept.

the concept is that you have more +EV spots with a smaller stack. likewise you have more +EV spots when you have a monster stack. when you have a smallish, 12-15BB stack, you simply don't have as many +EV options available to you.

Make it simple. lets say i can make, on average X BB/hand when my stack is smallish (but not redzone). the theory here, is that i will make on average, GREATER than X BB/hand when my stack is either very large, or very small. Now, i'm not 100% sure if that is true, but i believe that it is, and that is the theory that i thought we were going to discuss in this thread, as its fairly interesting, and probably could be very helpful for many people to think about and try to understand.

[Exitonly]

Are you saying you're willing to take a -EV situation, in order to be in the red zone, or slightly over?

I dont get the point of this...yes there are more situations that are profitable for your stack when in the red zone, but so what? you don't want to be there.

IMHO, these guys (pf, and betgo) are saying that you have more opportunities to have +EV when you have a short stack, because other player's calling ranges are bigger. for example: we all love suited connectors and suited 1 gappers(in position of course). dealt 89s. if i push my 6BB, i get called by a big stack with nearly any two. 89s is pretty solid against a random hand.

if i push the same hand with 14BB, i only called by hands that have me crushed. now, with 14BB it might be worth it to wait for a better hand to play, but decent( 88+, AJ+) hands dont come often. if i raise 3X BB with 89s to steal blinds and get reraised, what do i do? pushing only gets called by hands i dont want to be called by, folding means i lost 3BB, calling and playing a flop does not give me many options with my remaining 6BB.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, these guys (pf, and betgo) are saying that you have more opportunities to have +EV when you have a short stack, because other player's calling ranges are bigger. for example: we all love suited connectors and suited 1 gappers(in position of course). dealt 89s. if i push my 6BB, i get called by a big stack with nearly any two. 89s is pretty solid against a random hand.

if i push the same hand with 14BB, i only called by hands that have me crushed. now, with 14BB it might be worth it to wait for a better hand to play, but decent( 88+, AJ+) hands dont come often. if i raise 3X BB with 89s to steal blinds and get reraised, what do i do? pushing only gets called by hands i dont want to be called by, folding means i lost 3BB, calling and playing a flop does not give me many options with my remaining 6BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. this is one of the reasons why you have more +EV with the smaller stack. you double up a lot more often.


but anwyays, exit, please look over it again. i'm not saying that you WANT to be in the redzone, but that its NOT THAT BAD. meaning that you can take gambles that might even be slightly -EV if the result of the gamble will leave you either with a huge stack, or with a playable redzone stack if you lose.

[bmxreed36]

I think I understand somewhat what you two are getting at. However, I think it would just be better to focus on learning how to play an average/medium stack size more efficiently in order not to have to worry about this.