Can God....

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
ON THE OTHER HAND....heh
How can we find out anything about a person?

1. We can read about him. (Julius Caesar, George Washington)
2. We can read or hear what he says about himself. (Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto))
3. We can talk to people who know/knew him. (friends, relatives, colleagues of his)
4. If he's creative, we can view his works. (Mona Lisa, the Brooklyn Bridge)
5. We can talk to him and request a meeting.
6. We can meet him face to face.

If you eliminate ALL these options, you aren't ever going to find out anything!


[/ QUOTE ]

I do eliminate all of these.

All we have is evidence and we believe things like 'if the evidence for X is correct then X'. To avoid tedium we drop the conditional but its always there.

Therefore, it might be reasonable to believe 'if the bible is true then there is a god' but we can't get from there to 'there is a god'.

You can go further and say 'if the testimony is reliable then the bible is true, therefore there is a god'

and finally to 'I believe the testimony therefore I believe the bible is true and therefore I believe there is a god'

We build up a whole structure of beliefs about the world that, if we are logical, are not contradictory but we shouldn't forget that the conclusions are based on some initial beliefs that are taken on faith (or assumed or never considered).

I see no way out of this bind but I keep listening so feel free [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

chez

I'm not sure where the title for these posts came from (and can't be bothered to check). I'm not calling you a jackass and I sure ain't 19 so perhaps we should change it.

[chesspain]

Dave,

Doesn't Vegas have drive-thru synagogues for your late night religious needs?

[kalooki45]

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, it might be reasonable to believe 'if the bible is true then there is a god' but we can't get from there to 'there is a god'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?
I'm not sure I'm understanding you here.

(the jackass 19 thing is another poster) :P

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, it might be reasonable to believe 'if the bible is true then there is a god' but we can't get from there to 'there is a god'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?
I'm not sure I'm understanding you here.


[/ QUOTE ]

If we assume that the conditional is true (for the moment)

then 'if the bible is true then there is a god'

there is no reasonable way to get from there to 'there is a god' because the conditional means that if the bible is not true then there may not be a god.

you need to establish that the bible is true, but that requires a reason such as the testimony and so on forever.

you get a chain:
god if the bible is true
bible is true if the testimony is reliable
testimony is reliable if the people are credible witnesses
etc etc

and some point you either need some first propositions that must be true, or you start with some beliefs taken on faith.

Does that make sense?

chez

[kalooki45]

I shall think on these things...I'm not 19 either, and my thinker is tired [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
If I come up with anything intelligent to say, I'll post it here...(may never be heard from again!) lol

[Mars357]

God is likely in Heaven at this very moment, wringing his hands because of ALL the people who have ever lived on Earth, he has finally been out witted by David Sklansky....

David, if you and God set down to a heads up game of no limit Hold 'em, who do you think would win?

[kalooki45]

[ QUOTE ]
because the conditional means that if the bible is not true then there may not be a god.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chez, I've thought about what you've said above, and as long as you leave in 'may', then I don't have a problem with the conditional.
I personally believe in Him, so I know that even if the Bible should be proven false (which it never will), He's still there.
He doesn't say He "knows" the Truth--He says He "IS" the Truth--big diff there.

I think we've just come full circle to what I orginally said. "You can't reduce God to a logic problem."

The Bible gives our MINDS enough info about God..but it's in our heart and our will that faith comes in.
If the Bible is true, then it tells you everything you need to know. But believing that it's true, and having FAITH are different. Intellectual assent to the existence of God is NOT faith, but it's a necessary first step.

If you shut off every avenue to your mind and heart, you can shut Him out, but why would you want to? Maybe you should think about this...

"Many are called, but few are chosen"..He CHOSE Moses, and the Apostles...He struck Paul blind on the road to Damascus to get HIS attention..lol
but those are His front line troops if you will; the Generals..and even they could've said no--it just wasn't very likely.

So what are you waiting for? Waking up to see an Archangel sitting at the foot of your bed? heh
************************************************** *on the lighter side....

Ever notice the words of angels in the Bible every time they have to talk to and appear to humans? Always the same..."Be not afraid.."
"No, get UP and listen to me..." "STOP worshipping me..."
God's postal service seems to intimidate people a little..lol

[Carl_William]

Can God?:"come up with two positive integers such that when you cube each and add them up, you get the cube of a third integer? "

David;

David, what would you offer God if God offered to perform your "Can God...." task or trick. After all, all math is just a bag of tricks.

David are you the devil? Teasing or tempting God to do this and that? David it might not be wise to tease or temp the Almighty – you never know?

Carl William

[chezlaw]

Hi Kalooki

I think we are in agreement (maybe not [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), belief in god comes from somewhere deep down, it is not a product of reason. That's why I claim it's untouched by logic and that those who argue it is logical to believe in god are making the same mistake as those who argue it is illogical to believe in god.

[ QUOTE ]
If you shut off every avenue to your mind and heart, you can shut Him out, but why would you want to? Maybe you should think about this...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it is a matter of 'want'. Those without faith cannot switch it on anymore than you can switch it off.


[ QUOTE ]
So what are you waiting for? Waking up to see an Archangel sitting at the foot of your bed? heh

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that's the point. Even if someone appeared at the foot of my bed claiming to be an archangel and performing 'miracles' before my eyes then it wouldn't change my belief in god at all. Why should it?


[ QUOTE ]
************************************************** on the lighter side....

Ever notice the words of angels in the Bible every time they have to talk to and appear to humans? Always the same..."Be not afraid.."


[/ QUOTE ]

to quote from one of my favorite books:

'be not afraid.... be very afraid'
[currently featuring on radio 4 Tues 6:30pm repeated at 11:00pm Thur]

chez

[kalooki45]

Hello Chez,

I'll switch on Radio 4 today then [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I think we agree, too. It's Biblical to believe that Faith is the gift of God. Man can't produce it by an act of will.

HOWEVER, you're not off the hook. GOD will give you Faith, when you surrender your will..heh...that's the famous 'leap'.

As far as logic goes, I consider myself a fairly logical person, but I'm not a trained logician or debater. If you want the LAST word on logic--I'd recommend talking to a Jesuit.
As a Protestant, I probably shouldn't say that--but those guys are GOOD at it!...lol
Given enough time, they could probably argue Satan out of Hell [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]