Disprove the Bible

[jason_t]

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God isn't arbitrary. He is just. He can't lie, He can't sin, He can't tempt to sin.

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You seem to have a preconceived notion of what is good and evil and are telling me that God wouldn't do things that go against those notions. davelin and I initiated this conversation under the assumption that God is the sole arbiter of what is good and evil.

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This is like saying, suppose He makes a square circle. God can't do the intrinsically impossible, He can't violate His own nature.

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It is absolutely nothing like that.

[Kevin]

Christianity/Islam/Jewish faith:

God promised Abraham a son that would be the lineage of the Messiah. Abraham was in his 90's. His wife, Sarah, who had been barren for years, laughed at him. Abraham took matters into his own hands and had relations with his maid servant Hagar. She had Ishmael. God said, no, that is not what I had in mind. Sarah then got pregnant with Isaac. SO, the Ishmael and Hagar was sent away. Isaac had Jacob, Jacob had 12 sons, David and Jesus came from the tribe (son) of Judah. Ishmael's line bred Muhammed - so ultimately, they both think that they have the lineage to Abraham and the promise that God gave. Jesus declared himself prophesy fulfilled, was killed and resurrected and sits at God's right hand and will return to judge the earth.

Re the old vs young earth. I was referenced to a fantastic book from a physicist who talked of God's day. Since a day on earth is 24 hours but different times on different planets, the day 1 that is talked about in Genesis 1 is the day of a universe - some radiation something or other, I will get the actual term and share it. He gave each day based upon what was created, the first day was around 4.6 billion, the second was 1.2 billion, each day got closer and closer to an earth day, until finally, day 6 was a 24 hour day. So, it answered the question of an old earth and new earth at the same time. I have butchered it, and don't remember everything. I will get the title if anyone wants to reference it. However, it was totally logical based upon science and physics and written by a physicist.

In short, if there is a God, there is eternal consequence. If there is eternal consequence, we have to do what we are told, have faith, love God, love others, etc. Most don't like the idea of eternal consequence so they put their head in the sand, hands over their ears and say that there is no God so that they can eat, drink and be merry. Forgetting the fact that it takes much more faith to believe in a big bang and theory of evolution than an ultimate, loving creator. in fact, you would have to stack dimes to the moon over an area the size of Texas for the probability for a single amino acid forming, let alone the evolution that would have to come from that single amino acid.

Religion and Politics are usually one in the same, you are usually preaching to the choir or talking to the wall.

[NotReady]

No, God defines good and evil, and what we know of it is revealed in the Bible. It has nothing to do with my conceptions.

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It is absolutely nothing like that.

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It's exactly like that. God can't do the contradictory. He IS good, so what He says is the definition of good. He isn't subject to an abstract, impersonal standard. He IS the standard.

[jason_t]

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It's exactly like that. God can't do the contradictory. He IS good, so what He says is the definition of good. He isn't subject to an abstract, impersonal standard. He IS the standard.

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And I am asking, what would you think if he told you to murder, to lie, to cheat, to steal, and to rape kittens and that those things would be good. You say he what he says is the definition of good. So, those things would be good. We're not subjecting to preconceived or abstract notions of what is good. He is doing this, on his own accord, by his own standards. How would you react?

Or, if you like, assume that he did 5800 years ago and that is what was passed down on Mt. Sinai and is in the bible. What would you think?

[jason_t]

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God can't contradict Himself.

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He can't change his mind?

[Richie Rich]

DINOSAURS.

[NotReady]

The Bible speaks of God repenting, or changing His mind. This is not a change in His divine attributes or essential nature. It's not even an actual change of mind as we think of it, like I say I want chocolate then change my mind and pick vanilla. The repentence spoken of in Scripture has to do with God's relationship with men. He told Jonah He was going to destroy Nineveh, Jonah preached to them, they repented, God changed His mind about the destruction. To time bound creatures, these things happen in a sequence, but with God, He always knew Jonah would preach, Nineveh would repent, and He would not destroy it. Had they not repented God would have destroyed it. He changes how He deals with us concerning our actions, but He is immutable in His essence. You can find many more examples, I think they will all be similar, for instance:

Is.38:1-5
"In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah ... said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live. ... Thus saith the LORD ... I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years."

This is consistent with other passages of Scripture which say that if you repent and believe, you will be saved, and if not, you will be condemned. If you currently do not believe, you under God's condemnation. If you repent and believe, you will no longer be under His condemntion. God hasn't changed, He has mercifully changed the way He deals with you.

[NotReady]

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And I am asking, what would you think if he told you to murder, to lie, to cheat, to steal, and to rape kittens and that those things would be good.

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All of these involve motive. If God told me to take an action that would be considered wrong by man, I would obey God rather than men. He told Abraham to sacrifice his son, and Abraham was willing to do so. And if God had let him go through with it, it would not have been sin. Of course, there is no warrant for believing God deals with us in this way in normal circumstances. I don't claim that God speaks to me in that way, and I don't think He does to anyone else during this age. So those who commit crimes claiming God told them are still to be treated under human law.

You're trying to raise the old dilemma from Plato. Is something good because God says it is (arbitrariness), or does God say it because it's good (impersonal, abstract standard above God). It's a false dilemma. It's good because God says it is, but it's not arbitrary, because He IS good. To then say that if He says to commit murder, murder becomes good, is to deny His essential character. He has already said murder is evil, and it is evil because it is contrary to His nature, therefore He would never command murder. In Old Testament times He did command that some be put to death, but it was not murder.

In order to make the speculation you are attempting, you have to first presuppose the impossibility of the God of the Bible. You presuppose the ultimacy of chance and the impersonal. This is Plato's position. But if God is sovereign He is not subject to our judgment, nor is He arbitrary. He is absolute and personal, immutably good and just. He can't deny Himself or violate His character.

[jason_t]

sup·pose
v. sup·posed, sup·pos·ing, sup·pos·es
v. tr.

01. To assume to be true or real for the sake of argument or explanation: Suppose we win the lottery.
2a. To believe, especially on uncertain or tentative grounds: Scientists supposed that large dinosaurs lived in swamps.
2b. To consider to be probable or likely: I suppose it will rain.
03. To imply as an antecedent condition; presuppose: “Patience must suppose pain” (Samuel Johnson).
04. To consider as a suggestion: Suppose we dine together.


v. intr.

To imagine; conjecture.

[jstnrgrs]

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As I mentioned, it's impossible to argue with you if you believe this. I am too logical of a human being to accept or argue such a premise. How can you reason and think about something if it doesn't even follow your own system of reasoning?

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1. You are only willing to discuss that which can be argued logically.
2. You believe that if there is a God, he is bound by the rules of logic.
3. Therefore, you have a logical reason for believing God to be bound by logic.

Let's hear it.