Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?

[brassnuts]

Yeah... he whines.
Yeah... he makes some very weird plays.
Yeah... he often out-thinks himself into making stupid decisions.
What else?
Oh, and yeah... he is that good.

[SuitedSixes]

With all of the complaining that the "pros" did about the internet players, I wonder if the gap has been closed somewhat between the super-pros and the rest of us. Surely the speed of the internet game and the fact that we do not get distracted by body language and learn to just play the cards has to count for something.

[Freudian]

Wonder if he himself realize how he comes off writing stuff like that.

* For someone who credits himself with great reading skills, why on earth doesnt he have the guts to act upon his reads? What good are they if he will chicken out of a call he thinks he has the best of?

* He takes waaaaaaay too much pride in his folds. By now it seems he would rather fold cleverly than win a hand.

I don't know if he plays this weak as it sounds here, but if he does I think he will be a more rare and rare guest at final tables in the future given there are more and more unknown players in each event, and it will probably grow. And PH seems scared of them and their play.

[Syntax]

Lots of comments and Phil hating going on in this thread. I'm pretty sure that not one of the people respoding really understands large field tournament play.

I particularly like the one that "he was playing not to lose, instead of wining"

That is EXACTLY how you are supposed to play Day one (and day two with this field) of the WSOP. You can't win it on Day One no matter how big your stack (Laing). All you have to do is stay one step ahead of the blinds and wait for strong hands.

Going for it all on pocket Queens is exactly what the "real" pro's want YOU to do. Laying down hands is the key to tournament success untill the final table. Phil has been playing this way for 15 years and he is the best tournament player there is bar none. He didnt get 9 bracelets being a fish.

[Freudian]

Do you think it's good play to constantly show his opponents he is folding QQ, JJ etc face up and then continue to folding them?

At this stage I can imagine him having a nightmare in future tournaments simply because everyone knows he is so much in survival mode that he don't have the guts to make calls he figures himself a huge favourite in. Afterall, a 7 might fall.

No doubt he is a great player but it seems he is struggling a bit to adjusting to the new face of tournament poker.

[MMMMMM]

...and his book sucks out loud. But hey, somebody has to have been the luckiest tournament player in the world.

As his results regress to his own personal mean, we can expect to hear a LOT more whining.

[KC50]

I'm right there with you Syntax. Phil's "poker brat" demeanor makes him a target by the not so skilled player. Seasoned pros and regular tourney players are able to look past the personalities and in most cases avoid confrontations with each other.

However, I do think he possibly misplayed the KK he speaks of in the multiway pot.

What are yours or others thoughts on that?

KC

[chrisjp]

I feel quite sure that Paul Phillips would disagree with you. He went out day 1 with an overpair against a bad player who had an 8 outer after the flop. See Paul Phillips Journal http://extempore.livejournal.com/. Paul had a 2-1 edge on this hand to double up. Who wouldn't want to take those odds? Even someone as good as Paul wants to. It's pretty obvious Phil doesn't.

I think this idea of survival is wrong--not early in a big tournament anyway. I watched 20 hours of the WSOP from the rail, and Greg was able to do amazing things because he built up his stake early.

Usually the early leaders are bad, wild, lucky (Day1 and Day2) players so eventually they bomb out. Like the guy who beat Phillips. He was long gone by Day 3 even though he had a large stack.

But someone like Greg, or Phillips, who know what to do with a big stack, have a big edge by getting ahead early.

[fireman664]

Look, He sucks, his book sucks even worse, but the man IS one of the all time greatest tournament players. He may have some serious leaks in his game right now, and even more leaks in his personality, but the guy can play.

[La Brujita]

One of most important things I have learned from Greg on these forums is that you should rarely eschew positive ev situations in tournaments, especially far away from the money. I really hate Phil conisdering his laydowns of pair over pair as good plays (instead of looking at them as bad reads). You only get hands like KK and QQ so often in a tournament and you better capitalize on them when you get them. I am not talking about overplaying them but just playing them right.

My other thought on the matter is the more experience I get the more I realize there is only so much you can outplay an opponent. A significant portion of the time you have to just play solid poker. Of course this is less true for no limit than limit but the "internetization" of poker has made this a bit more true for nl as well.