SERIOUS PLAYERS READ THIS POST (also posted in poker theory forum)

[deacsoft]

Nice I might check out the <$20.00 video before the $300-$400 class. Did you find the video helped you at all in live games? Would you recommend it?

[eric5148]

I got the video just becuase it seemed interesting, before I even started playing poker. I've never played in a B&M cardroom, but I plan to soon. First, I was going to study the video again, and get Caro's book.

I have found it useful in real life for detecting dishonesty.

[CrisBrown]

Hi deacsoft,

While the people who teach (and take) this course will doubtless tell you otherwise, the simple truth is that these people do no better than anyone else at spotting lies. In fact, there was some research which compared judges, cops, insurance investigators, trial attorneys, clergy, school teachers, and auto mechanics. Guess what?

They all scored the same. None of them scored better than 50% in the tests, which given that the questions were of the yes/no (is this person lying?) variety, means none of them scored better than sheer random chance. You could, quite literally, flip a coin and do as well.

It turns out that we as a species are not good at telling if someone is lying ti us. Given time to cross-check facts, consult and re-question multiple witnesses, etc., we can do somewhat better, though still far from perfect. But as for an individual watching someone say something, and then being able to determine whether that speaker is lying ... sorry ... that's not something we can do well in all but the most obvious cases.

Conclusion: save your $400.

Cris

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Some very good research has recently been done with detection of lying by police officers and others trained to detect lies through a specialized course (the most popular of it's kind nationwide). The research showed that those who went through the course were highly confident in their ability to detect lies, but were actually LESS effective than untrained Intro Psych students. I know nothing about this insurance course, but I suspect it is more of the same. All law enforcement groups showed this pattern and the only group better than the average untrained student, was the Secret Service (although they were still only about 2/3 accurate). Most were no better than random chance.

Dr. Milo, a real life Psychologist with big beitzim to boot!

[deacsoft]

Thanks for the interesting feedback ChrisBrown and BigBaitsim.

p.s. those of you who vote... your thoughts on why you chose to vote the way you did are very important to me. please share a brief explanation as to why you chose to vote as you did.

[Al Mirpuri]

Let me give you a case. A business said that his freezer packed in and all the meats his business was carrying for sale were made unfit to sell. The insurance people investigate. They discover that his freezer could not have possibly carried all the meat he was claiming it carried. Claim denied. How is that going to help you in poker?

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
All law enforcement groups showed this pattern and the only group better than the average untrained student, was the Secret Service (although they were still only about 2/3 accurate). Most were no better than random chance.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. It is exremely valuable if you can pick up tells reliably, but I believe many people think that they can read others when they can't.

Five of the top 100 backgammon players in the world (with a lot of tournament and money play success; some noted authors) play at my local club. We also have some poker players (some just enthusiasts, some pros) who are not great backgammon players yet, and who know they are outmatched (some pay for backgammon lessons from the experts).

To our surprise, the poker players don't read the backgammon experts. There is no hidden information. A backgammon player may double knowing the position is a huge pass (in one instance, by 10x the size of the mistake that would be called a blunder), but the poker player accepts the double anyway. A poker player may make the right move, pause to look at the backgammon expert's reaction, and change to a blunder.

Of course, it could be that their problem was that they had not taken the claim investigator course, but without additional objective evidence I wouldn't spend $400 on it.

[teemu_69]

I voted that I would consider it with more info. Of course this is a good idea in theory, but I would want to know what lessons are taught and more statistics regarding graduates of the class...

[salty]

I think you can achieve similar results without the same expenditure.I have just received a book on detecting lies and intend to read it this weekend,I will pass on a critique of the book to anyone who might be interested and tell you whether or not it contains info aplicable to the poker table.(pm me if interested)

There are also a few sites that have good info,try this one for starters: http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/diction1.htm

I have been studying body language at the table a lot recently and it does help,not every hand but throughout a game you pick up small bits of info.

The best tip I have read and trust me it works is when you are in a pot with someone and they are betting into you, look at their adams apple (if theyre a guy obviously) when they bet/raise if it jumps instantly they are bluffing.You will be very surprised at the result of this tip I guarantee it.If anyone has the wpt dvd/tape of Lederer v Phil Ivey (the one where Lederer won against flack,hope this is right coz ive only seen the wpt twice.) watch it and watch carefully when he bets into Ivey when Ivey has a Q on the flop with a small kicker (i think its this hand) look at Lederers throat and watch that adams apple jump when he has none of it.I re raised a guy the other day as a result of this tell and he folded.

If you are playing live keep looking at your opponants not your cards,there is info to be gained and do not look at the flop when its dealt look at players who are in the hand.

[Warior]

Cross posting this

Although I can see where you feel this could be an avenue for you let me interject slightly. Professional sale training employs the same techniques as you are referring to, that is asking questions and judging on response and body language. The challenge you have relating that to poker is that you really can't initiate enough conversation at the table to get response your looking for.

Poker is a game of betting not a game of questioning; if you could consistently ask opponents about their holdings and you refined your own techniques enough you could get some useful information. But a $300 course will not give this to you. Go the path you wish and please report on any results but I feel your $300 would be much better used as buy-in for your games.