Prevalence/importance of online collusion

[jdl22]

here's what I don't understand about your post Granny:

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...fuking shiit... motherfuker... [censored] YOU !!

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So clearly you can beat the censor given the [censored] YOU !! at the end. Given that this is possible, why all the fuking and shiit? Why not [censored] and [censored]?

[Rob Blackburn]

I agree with Granny here I think the rig shuffle crap are the least of our worries. At a live game about a month ago out of eleven people sitting at the table(10 players+dealer) seven of the people including the dealer admitted to colluding online in some form regularly. Out of the 4 that said they had not 2 had never even played online.

It was disturbing in the least, I really had believed that it was not that prevelant. Now I'm not sure what to think,
I really don't think it happens in an effective manner at the limits I play online. I figure though if that many people are doing it at a small private club(trust me these people are no rocket scientists either), than there is obviously serious groups doing it for tons of money in other places.

[sumdumguy]

**deleted**

[Senor Choppy]

In order to beat the games colluding, you need to know how to play winning poker to begin with, be smart enough to know how to do collude with someone profitably, and also how to avoid detection.

If someone knows how to beat the game they're playing, they might try to get an extra edge by playing with a partner at the same time, but eventually they'd probably come to realize it's a lot easier just to add extra tables to increase your win rate, and it's a lot safer, as well. If they stick with colluding instead, chances are they are gaining almost no edge or actually lowering their winrate because colluding in a way that avoids detection is probably a big distraction to their game and gives them little added edge.

It might be happening, but I've never witnessed anything beyond an occasional odd looking hand. If people are colluding, it certainly isn't ruining the games for me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[dogsballs]

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but I've never witnessed anything beyond an occasional odd looking hand.

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I try and look for games where I see lots of 'odd looking hands'.. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[InternetPokerPro]

This is the most intelligent post on internet collusion that I have seen on this forum.

Bottom line . . . a winning player at 5/10 and above would be insane to collude.

To further make my point . . . in the case of Party Poker 15/30 there are up to 50 games going during peak hours. In that environment, the most important discipline required to maximize your win rate is GAME SELECTION. This is not to say that you don't have to play solid starting hands and play well after the flop. But if you are anchored to a collusion partner in the same couple of games all night . . . you have lost multiples more in earn than what little you can gain from the limited collusion techniques that are not so obvious as to get your butt kicked off the site in short order.

That being said . . . there is a lot of collusion that takes place on the internet. But it is only logical, based on the above, to conclude that the vast majority of colluders will try it a couple of times primarily just to see if they can do it or they are losing players that will not even be able to win thru collusion.

It is inherent in the very nature of playing poker on the internet that it has happened, is happening, and it will continue to happen. Once you accept that, you also have to accept that "THEY ARE JUST A BUNCH OF DUMBXXXX's STUCK IN THE SAME GAME ALL NIGHT LONG THAT ARE STILL DESTINED TO LOSE ALL THEIR $$ . . . MAYBE JUST A LITTLE BIT SLOWER".

[Senor Choppy]

I don't agree with everyone about the importance of game selection, although I'm sure my winrate would be higher if I spent the time to seek out tables with loose/passive players.

The idea of 2 people being tied to one another in 15/30 made me think of something else. It would be almost impossible to follow someone around in 15/30 without it becoming suspicious. In the lower limits I could sit down at my original tables and plan on being there virtually all night. At 15/30, I probably have to sit at 15-20 tables over the course of the night just to keep up with all the ones that are breaking.

[InternetPokerPro]

I am not sure why the lower limits are different, but at 15/30 game selection is by far the most important incremental step you can take to improve your results assuming you already play half way decent starting hands and don't fall in love w/ every hand after the flop.

And game selection does not mean just get in the game w/ the highest average pot. In many cases the reason for the high average pots is (1) a lot of raising and re-reraising before the flop that is often typical of strong aggressive players or (2) a huge % of the players are seeing every flop (at some point this can actually reduce your edge in the game because the pot odds dictate a large # of chase calls by the fish are mathmetically correct.

By good game selection I mean finding the games with the most loose/passive players and not the most maniacs. This can often mean the best game has an average pot size of 5-7 big bets even though there are games on the board w/ 7-8 big bets in average size.

But make no mistake that finding the 3-4 best games out of the 50 on the board and spending the time to continually re-evaluate the games you are in while looking for better games is HUGE in relation to your overall win rate.

Colluders simply can't move around like that and therefore would have been much better off just playing on their own (assuming that they know how to play in the 1st place . . . which most of them don't).

[InternetPokerPro]

I should have mentioned that when it comes to the large no limit games on the internet everything I said is totally irrelevant.

In those games YOU HAVE NO WIN AGAINST COLLUSION AND FOR THE AMOUNT OF MONEY INVOLVED YOU WOULD BE TOTALLY NAIVE TO NOT ASSUME IT IS HAPPENING. I have no idea why someone would play in a large no limit game on the internet.

[youtalkfunny]

When I tell people that I play online poker, I am invariably asked, "Aren't you afraid of people who team up to cheat? Cell phones, IM's, blahblahblah?"

I have a stock answer: "Hey, as long as I'm winning, I don't care if they cheat!"