Axo and good players.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
i am currently rereading WLLHE, and in it jones encourages a raise in late position preflop with A10o and A9o (see esp page 47 -- second edition). Well, while i think the book is good and has improved my game, I simply cant stomach this for some reason.

maybe someone can set me straight here, but it seems to me this is a marginal call AT BEST, and is certainl,y not worthy of a raise. I have been usually folding A9o in late position, and will play A10 IF i can be pretty darn sure no one is going to raise behind me. (Safe to say I am usually folding this hand in earlier postions.) In any even I am loath to raise in this situation.

Am i being too tight? or is jones right? I'm inclined to disagree with him on this point, but if I'm wrong I certainly wont begrudge anyone correcting me.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's talking about if it's folded around to you right?

[Greg J]

no he's talking about if there are four or fewer callers, So i suppose that would be at least three people folding, depending on how late your postiion is.

He actually also recomends also raising with these hands with five or more callers.

However, he does not recomend even calling these hands when the pot is raised.

Anyway -- it seems that A10o if not worth a raise in late postion, but might be worth a limp in. A9o is more marginal, and only if i am pretty sure of the 2 or 3 guys acting behind me will only call will i limp in with that. I certainly dont want to raise with it.

[Shalara]

I definitely raise here!

First, you probably have the best hand. AK, AQ, and AJ generally raise pre-flop, so your kicker is likely better than any other ace out there.

Secondly, if the flop misses you ten ways from Sunday, you can still generally see the turn for free. Sometimes a bet will take it down even if you miss. And when you do hit top pair, there are only 2 other aces out there. Not so many people like to call when someone bets with an ace on the board. This way you get your money in earlier.

However, I do not advocate merely calling. That takes away your shot at a steal if you miss. No free turn either. And if you make it, you have top pair, probably top kicker, and less money in the pot!

That's just my reasoning, but that seems to be the effect, and raising A9 & AT o in end works pretty well for me.

[Greg J]

I appreciate your explanation. it is more than jones offers in why to raise with A9o, but then his is not a book for the theoretically inclined player either, whereas I like not only to know WHAT to do, but WHY i am doing it.

The problem I have with A9o is there is no straight potential, no flush potential, if you hit a 9 it is unlikely to be the highest card on the board (and if it is it increases the liklihood of a straight that will beat you). Plus, nine is a pretty weak kicker.

(I know, i know, there is probably not a bigger kicker out there --- maybe this is my own paranioia.)

The other thing is there are 2 or 3 people left to act. Any they will reraise with AK, AQ, and maybe AJ. I know that i cant be afraid of monsters under the bed, but it seems any of those hands dominates A9 and ATo.

I understand your reasoning, and i dont want to be weak tight, but overall it really seems to me the costs outweight the benefits here.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think completing in the SB with nearly any Ace can be profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

If one has trouble dropping top pair postflop, and with postflop play in general, up the 'x' part to a bigger kicker.

Misplaying it/marrying a top pair is how you lose money in this spot.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
That takes away your shot at a steal if you miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless the micros have tightened up some, it's not often there is any stealing going on there.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless 3 other calls and me I'll play any Axs but Axo I won't play unless A10o

[/ QUOTE ]

So with only 2 other 'weak' callers you'd fold Axs? This is way too tight. Hell, i complete my sb with any 2 suited.

Gotta remember, you're only putting in 1/2 a bet here. Then you factor in the skill of the players limping.

So on a typical weak, primarily passive microtable, yes, i am completing the sb with Axo.

b

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
AK, AQ, and AJ generally raise pre-flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

No they dont. AA usually doesn't raise in the games I play.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Misplaying it/marrying a top pair is how you lose money in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you'll call with it and often fold quickly even when an A flops?

This is tough to do and probably wrong a lot of the time, tell Ed Miller NPA that you fold top pair and see what he says. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

If you're playing it for 2 pair value then I don't think it makes sense. I also don't think folding top pair makes sense as you'll probably have odds to draw as well as possibly having the best hand. I don't see folding A6 when an Ace flops as an easy thing to do, and if you do in fact do it then why the hell did you call in the first place?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, i complete my sb with any 2 suited.


[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. Much tougher to get into big trouble doing this than playing A anything.