NY Times Article - Online Poker (very long)

[_And1_]

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that there is any potential legal cloud surrounding it.

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If so it is time for the sites to turn their heads to other markets (read Asia), Japan is one hell of a market, they are almost as crazy in gambling as we are and they have both internet and funds, how come none of the big sites is available in asian languages?

sure, party have their "home" front in, japanese, chinese and korean, but still that aint enough (thats just 1 singel page) havent found any of the other big ones in any translated mode, have you?

[TimM]

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The players referred to as Ben and Jimmy are close friends of mine, and those are not real names.

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Anyone I know from the chess world?

(TimM from ICC) [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ZeeJustin]

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"It's a game of skill, not of chance," Jimmy said.But in the eyes of the law, Mr. Dreifach said, gambling includes all games in which chance outweighs skill. "I don't know about you," he said, "but for most of us, poker is certainly a game of chance."

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When exactly does chance outweigh skill? What about baseball for example? Only a few teams a year win more than 60% of their games. Doesn't this mean chance outweighs skill in baseball? Or could I argue that after 100,000,000 hands of poker, there is virtually no fluctuation based on chance, but a huge fluctuation based on skill?

I'm not arguing that poker is or isn't gambling. This just seems like a horrendous definition to me.

Does anyone know exactly what the government does define gambling as?

[TimM]

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Does anyone know exactly what the government does define gambling as?

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Same as they define pornography, apparently (I know it when I see it).

[Some_Guy]

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It's a game of skill, not of chance," Jimmy said.But in the eyes of the law, Mr. Dreifach said, gambling includes all games in which chance outweighs skill. "I don't know about you," he said, "but for most of us, poker is certainly a game of chance."


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I believe that using this definition of gambling is what allowed the poker rooms in CA to open. I thought that the state of CA determined that poker was a game of skill not chance. CA law stated that games of chance were illegal which is what prevented open gambling ala NV, NJ, etc.

[eastbay]

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"It's a game of skill, not of chance," Jimmy said.But in the eyes of the law, Mr. Dreifach said, gambling includes all games in which chance outweighs skill.


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I guess they should go arrest everybody with stock shares as well.

eastbay

[eastbay]

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"I think it would be better to say that any amount of "skill" that trumps the house edge (in the case of blackjack, the actual house edge, but in the case of poker, the rake) should make it a game of skill in the long run."

indeed. if it is even remotely possible to have enough skill to beat the game then it becomes a game of skill.
if an infinite amount of skill still makes it a losing game then it is merely a game of luck.

all games and sports have a certain amount of luck involved....
if someone banks in a 3-point shot at the buzzer to win...and did not intend to bank it.....then it is viewed as a 'lucky shot' and a 'lucky win'. however, basketball is not viewed as a game of 'luck'.

if a foul-out is deflected away by a fan allowing another team to make the world series....oh never mind.

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Not to mention the way a football bounces...

eastbay

[soooted]

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The players referred to as Ben and Jimmy are close friends of mine, and those are not real names.
The reporter has no idea what hes talking about calling Jimmy a grinder (he is constantly playing 3-4 tables of 15-30)...not really what I'd consider a grinder.
Also "Jimmy" is a bit upset at being called slightly less skilled than Ben, by a reporter who doesnt even know the rules of poker. I think he was basing it on the fact that "Ben" won 55K in one tournament.


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Jimmy plays 3-4 tables of 15-30 and has made $30k in 4 months... ($30k / 17.3 = $1734 per week).

I realize 4 months is not "long-term".... but I know 5-10 players playing only 3 tables (not short-handed either) making more than that. I know 3-6 players playing only 3-tables making that much, but playing 60 hours/week.

Maybe Jimmy is having a sub-par 4-months, or only plays 15-20 hours a week.... otherwise he's a pretty bad 15-30 player.

[curtains]

yes hes obviously a beginner

[QnA]

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gambling includes all games in which chance outweighs skill

[/ QUOTE ] That means poker is in the clear. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


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Mr. Dreifach said, gambling includes all games in which chance outweighs skill. "I don't know about you," he said, "but for most of us, poker is certainly a game of chance."

[/ QUOTE ] Playing poker, without knowlegde, is no more a game of chance than is playing the stock market, without knowledge. Hard work and research in both can lead to profits. After all Ben is clocking 10 hour shifts in order to make his money, and sleeping 5 hours a night. That doesn't describe a profitable life due to dumb luck. In fact Ben's life sounds a lot like the lives of Internet stock traders.

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Some poker players actually support the idea of making online gambling illegal. But they do not believe poker is a form of gambling.

[/ QUOTE ] However, I agree with other poker players that games such as Roulette, Blackjack, Video Poker, etc are a form of gambling. I absolutely NEVER have played any of these online. However, if I did, I would know fully well this would be a losing proposition. I think a very high majority of people know this.


I feel sorry for Steve. He obviously has a problem with gambling. However, he is an educated man (I assume this due to him being a lawyer), and if he worked on improving his poker skills, I don't think he would have lost this much money. I think he can't control what level stakes he wants to play at, because it's very difficult to lose that much money playing ($15k+) for low stakes. I don't think the mass poker players should be punished for the lack of self-control a few people.