What do you do with this draw?

[sdplayerb]

Check your math.
He raised to 800. So two people have in 800, plus a 200 small blind.

That is 1,800.

[BradleyT]

Well if he has any pocket pair and you push, he's looking at a 3600 pot and has to call 1800 so he's got the right odds to call with anything from 22-AA. Of course he doesn't know you're on a draw and would probably fold 22 - 66 and possibly 88-99.

But I don't think he's behind often enough here (raise in EP with 22-77? doubtful) to not call. The blinds are coming up on him soon and if he folds here the blinds are gonna take out 600 of his 1800 he has left. I think he calls often enough and has you beat often enough to make this a -EV play for you.

[DrPhysic]

Soh,

"This guy with 3000 in chips in early position raises to 800. Everyone folded to you, and let's say you decided to call for another 400 with KQo from the BB."

I have to agree with sdplayerb. All the discussion in this thread amounts to "How do I extricate myself from the trap I already have my foot in?"

KQo is a lousy hand on a full table. See D. Brunson's list of "trouble hands" in SS. It's playable short or HU, but not on a full table, especially after a raise. In fact, I will fold it after a limp. If you had folded in the first place you would have been much better off.

Wait for a decent hand like 22, or Axs or even KQs.

Doc

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
Soh,

"KQo is a lousy hand on a full table. See D. Brunson's list of "trouble hands" in SS. It's playable short or HU, but not on a full table, especially after a raise. In fact, I will fold it after a limp. If you had folded in the first place you would have been much better off.

Wait for a decent hand like 22, or Axs or even KQs.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

So 22 is a decent hand while KQo is a "trouble hand".
As a relative novice this raises a question for me which I'd like some help with. In Sklansky & Malmuth's rankings
KQ is class 4 while 22 is class 7. But Doc would prefer to play 22 preflop in this situation. Why?

I realize that S&M rankings were devised for Limit ring games, but would they be all that much different for NL tournament games? Where can I find the differences?

Thanks,
Jonathan

[Soh]

Hello Jonatahn,

The way I look at this is...
One good thing about 22 is that once you miss the flop, you can let it go, and save your chips. But if you make a set, you could collect a lot of chips.

However with KQ, you can hit a few more draws, so it could cost you a lot of chips when you don't make it, like it did with this hand. Also when K or Q comes on the flop, you don't want to fold too easily, yet you might be facing AK or AQ. In that case, basically you only have 3 outs.

By the way, S&M hand ranking is an excellent guide line when you're playing limit hold'em ring game but need more than a few adjustments when you're playing no-limit hold'em tournament.

Soh

[Jonathan]

By the way, S&M hand ranking is an excellent guide line when you're playing limit hold'em ring game but need more than a few adjustments when you're playing no-limit hold'em tournament.

Soh

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but what adjustments? Where can I find these adjustments described?

Thanks to all for your input.

Jonathan

[DrPhysic]

Start by doing a search for the words "Sklansky Karlson". Might be hyphenated. It is a thread, i beleive on poker theorey forum, from 3 or 4 months ago. Sklansky asked if one of the math types could come up with a better hand grouping, and offered a $200 bounty for the guy who could do it. I'm not completely convinced, I have a couple of disagreements with it or more correctly unanswered questions, but it is a starting place to find a better analysis of starting hands.

Doc

[DrPhysic]

1. This is a personal preference backed by much reading (Brunson, et al), and much loss of $ before I figured it out.
2. Go to www.twodimes.net and run any of the three hands I mentioned against KQo on the pokenum holdem hand calculator.
3. 22 isn't much of a hand. I used it to make the point of how bad KQo really is.
4. When I said wait for a decent hand like... I picked three of the lousiest hands I could think of that were playable on a full table to make the point. Obviously, you can't spend your life waiting for AA to play a hand. There are a lot better hands out there than the ones I mentioned. Any mid to large pair, any suited connectors of reasonable size, pref pictures, any suited pictures, etc.
5. You keep betting KQo on a regular basis, and I'll keep folding it, and we'll see who has the money in the long term.

Comments DO NOT apply when playing on short table or heads up.

And yes there is a big difference between limit and NL. Sklansky's limit hand groupings simply do not apply in NL. Pairs and high cards play much more effectively in NL than is indicated in the limit hand groupings. IE: Axs and Kxs are groups 5 and 7 in the limit hand groupings if I remember right. They play MUCH higher in NL.

edit: Read "Borderline or Trouble Hands" pp505 in SuperSystem. Also file for reference that most of the HE books in print are about limit holdem. Read the NLHE section of SuperSystem. (I will be reading Ruben & Ciaffone's PL & NL Poker next.)

GL

Doc [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[DrPhysic]

A couple of additional thoughts on KQo:
1) I didn't say you ALWAYS throw it in. I said you ALWAYS throw it in after a previous raise. (or maybe even a limp).
2) In late position, it plays better. If you have KQo in CO or button, all fold to you, throw 2 or 3 bb on the table, steal the blinds and go away happy. If you get called, you still have a decent drawing hand. But don't forget it is a drawing hand, you have to catch a good piece of the flop to win with it.
3) With only 1 or 2 others left on the table, it does play just as good as it looks. I'd kill for a KQo in a lot of HU situations, and often have to play hands a lot worse.

Doc

[sdplayerb]

I think I would actually rather have 22 here, than KQ.
With a minraise I am getting implied odds since I am half-in. If I hit, I know I have it won. If not, I am done.
With KQ, if I hit, I really don't know for sure where I am at and he will only call if he has you beat.
I would not play Ax here though.

I really like having pocket pairs when there is a min-raise. If the chips are deep (which they are not here) I also like small suited connectors.