Constitutional ban on same sex marriages?

[Utah]

Huh?

Let me get this straight - if you think you are getting discriminated against that screw the law and do what you want? Do is it also hold that you do not need to follow the law if you feel that an injustice has been done to you? Can you willy nilly change the rule of the law if you feel that it is really based on conservative christian doctrine?

Are you saying that the people no longer get to determine what discrimination is? A small group now gets to decide that against the will of the majority?

Why have a democracy under your logic?

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Why have a democracy under your logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

thats a big picture view that i cant argue with - whatever your system of government i am intolerant of the needless oppression of minorities - we can haggle about how gay people go about effecting change or we can talk about whether we think its fair and right that change should occur - i'm choosing the latter

you have 2 choices - either you think the laws that discriminate about gay people are fair and proper or you dont - if you are the latter then you are living in a system that tolerates discrimination and oppression and you should not meekly say "ohhh thats the way it is and there is a process to follow to change it" - you should be offended and seek to have those laws changed or support those who actively do so

there is not a single gay bone in my body but the obvious nonsense that is put forward to support the retention of discriminatory laws against gay people offends me - ignorant inflammatory double speak should offend us all

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
Most people in America, want the institution of Marriage to be between a man and a woman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people in Alabama in the 1950s wanted the institution of voting to be between white men and white women. I don't have to respect that opinion, do I?

Anybody who is really interested in the idea of true equality must support gay marriage. The fact of the matter is that most Americans are homophobic, and this is why this is such a contentious issue. The arguments that try to make it a religious or family-values type issue are just concealing this core reality.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
The arguments that try to make it a religious or family-values type issue are just concealing this core reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam I do believe you are delusional.

[andyfox]

Bush said that marriage is "the most fundamental institution of civilization."

Why do people take anything he says seriously any more? I'm liking my bet with Utah more and more.

[Utah]

Ah, I didn't see you were an Aussie when I first responded.

Would you not agree that The People in a democrary set the rules that they want to live my? If they set a rule that a certain group doesn't like (rightly or wrongly) is that group free to simply ignore the law? What do you think would happen in a country where the laws did not have to be followed because this or that person thought it was oppressive?

we can talk about whether we think its fair and right that change should occur - i'm choosing the latter
I agree. Lets talk about it. Lets make it an issue and help make people understand. However, lets not simply ignore the law because we don't like it.

not meekly say "ohhh thats the way it is and there is a process to follow to change it"
There is a process and that process needs to be followed. If it is not followed that you no longer have a democracy. please explain how you would erect a system of government based on groups of people ignoring laws that they find oppressive. it is great to hoot and holler but you have offered nothing of substance as an alternative.

but the obvious nonsense that is put forward to support the retention of discriminatory laws against gay people offends me - ignorant inflammatory double speak should offend us all
Unfortunately, there are some pretty good arguments out there for the status quo. I dont agree with them but I certainly can see how a non-bigoted rational person would.

Let me ask you a question - Are you for incestual relationships? Should I be able to marry my brother? My daughter? Should we all scream, "stop the needless and harmful discrimination against the incestous couples who want nothing but to get married like the rest of us?"

Should I be able to have 10 wives?

[Dylan Wade]

[ QUOTE ]
As I have said before, I am pro gay marriage. However, I am just disgusted by the actions of many in the gay rights movement. We are a nation of laws and we need to follow those laws. If you want something changed then do it right.

[/ QUOTE ]
This country was based on the idea of Natural Law. How do you think Founders of our country would react to the idea that "If you want something changed then do it right." To me it's a convoluted statement, because in America, the *right* way to bring change is to protest and fight.

Name one major civil rights change in America that hasn't occured without protest and political defiance.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
I am apalled however by the idea of taking such things into the constitution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to worry it won't happen, at least not anytime in the forseeable future.

[adios]

Not much chance of this ever happening IMO. The thing that I find really sad is how hurtful this issue is to so many. Here in New Mexico one of the counties started issuing marriage licences to gay couples and the AG stepped in basically and voided them all. Very painful for those couples who were so happy to have this happen in their lives. I might add without going into a lot of detail that same sex "marriages" that I'm aware of are IMO very solid and exlemporary. I can only imagine how painful this is to them. Irrationality prevails in this debate at the present time. I believe sam_h's point is exactly right, I wish it weren't so. I consider it to be ignorance. Does banning same sex marriages amount to unfair discrimination? Seems like it does to me but I could be convinced otherwise but not easily though.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, I didn't see you were an Aussie when I first responded

[/ QUOTE ]

we have democracy here too...

a majority of people in some muslim countries probably still believe that its ok for female circumcision to take place - no doubt though that female circumcision is a barbaric act born from a male dominated culture

there are countless other examples - the majority view is not the "right" view all the time - if democracy was supposed to be running the country by referendum a majority would probably vote for the abolition of income tax - or abolition of parking fines - in a democracy we elect people to represent us - we trust them and every so often we review that trust by voting for them or not

i take your point but like i said lets consider whether its right to allow gay marriage not worry ourselves with how such change should be effected or whether the majority agree

gay people are not a small minority - gay people are ordinary in every way in my experience of them - gay people have relationships that exactly mirror my experience of heterosexual relationships - most compelling for me is the thought that who cares ?? - the arguments your politicians have come up with should offend a thinking person - its fine that george has to be a christian to become president - but must he therefore discriminate against gay people because christian dogma is anti gay ?

why cant george do what a decent leader should do - decide whats fair and good for all the people - fundamentalist christians may not like gay marriage but tell me how it hurts them ? - how dare any person oppress another in a circumstance where no person is losing anything other than an offront to thier outdated sensibilities

taking the argument to the extremes of incest and bigamy is again to ignore the substance - but again i take your point - incest is easy because it normally comes with power inbalance - bigamy is fine as far as i'm concerned as long as again no-one is "losing" - "grown ups make what seem like weird choices to me" - from the lips of my 7 year old daughter

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

ps - please see my earlier post below titled "Gay Marriage" for a more detailed examination of the arguments for no gay marriage...