Ethics of Intentionally Putting People on Tilt

[Robk]

I don't think there's anything unethical about it. If someone exhibits tells when they talk during a hand, you're taking advantage of a psychological weakness. If someone goes nuts when you needle them, you're taking advantage of a psychological weakness. Is there some distinction I'm missing? It may not be classy, but that's another debate.

[toots]

Depends on the person, I guess.

If it's someone I've been having a pleasant game with, I wouldn't want to. If it's some guy who's spent the last five hands complaining about the bad beat he got six hands ago, I might be inclined to push him over the edge just for entertainment value.

Then again, I'd probably do that independently of any potential winnings I might see. Like I said: simply for the entertainment value.

I know that's rather harsh of me, but what the heck?

[bigpooch]

You're not sick enough. Would you drive a person who is
losing week in and week out to commit suicide?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone exhibits tells when they talk during a hand, you're taking advantage of a psychological weakness. If someone goes nuts when you needle them, you're taking advantage of a psychological weakness. Is there some distinction I'm missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there is. One is a byproduct of maintaining the same behavior in all situations, and the other involves malice and the desire to see somebody make emotionally unstable decisions.

Anybody who has the desire to see poker lifted above the scummy, addict infested world so much of our society sees it as needs to support all players playing off tilt at all times.

Tilt at best leads to decisions that resemble the symptoms of a gambling problem. At worst it is the cause of many's gambling problems.

[aces_full]

I normally like to be a good neighbor, but if I see someone beginning to tilt, I have no problem pushing them over the edge and kicking them when they are down, especially if this person has been acting like a jerk.

The best time I had doing this was with a calling station who lost and lost and kept beating himself up for it. In one hand I had made a full house and he called me down with top pair. He got mad when he turned his cards over. I told him if he ever wanted to win he needed to fold a little more often. So a few hands later we end up heads-up in a pot. I have nothing but I bet it out. He folds, and I quickly turned over my cards. That sent him over the edge. It wasn't 30 more minutes until he was broke.

[bigpooch]

That's nothing. There was a woman who was complaining about
my asking to see her hole cards (Not classy, but I just saw
that she didn't like it, and I really wanted to see her hand
to verify some ideas about how she played! In any case, I
was technically doing what is allowable because of these
ridiculous rules at the casino whereby anyone at the table
can ask for a live hand to be exposed!). So, obviously, she
was a bit upset over this, but this is even worse: exposing
that she is upset about this little thing (so it's a trigger
that can push her over the edge in the future by any of the
other thinking players!).

Then this hand came up: I was in the CO with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
and took the flop with almost the full field when this
woman on the button raised, so 7 or 8 to the flop! The flop
came down something like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
giving me second-nut flush draw. So, I made the standard
play and checkraised this woman on the flop: again, 7 or so
players to the turn! The turn paired on 8s and everyone
checked. I had now easily deduced that the woman held a
pocket pair between 9s and Ks inclusive. The river brought
an ace, and if anyone is going to win this ridiculously big
pot, it's going to be me with my squeaky clean tight image!
After a bunch of checks to me, I bet and of course, this
woman took a few seconds and then mucked (she probably held
QQ or KK for the hesitation!) and after everyone folded, I
gladly obliged to let her see MY cards. And of course, she
could very well have gone on tilt for weeks after that, but
why expose such psychological frailty to people that might
take advantage of it and put you over the edge? And
especially someone that not only would induce future tilting
but is able to endure all sorts of juice and never tilt!

[rodeoclown]

With the growing legitamacy of poker as a skill game,
it is becoming clearer that the mainstream will soon
see poker as the sport that I believe it is. ESPN
broadcasts of the World Series are old news as NBC
will air the WPT Battle of Champions prior to the Super
Bowl today.

With this growth in the game will come all sorts of
"ethical" issues, and some issues of "fairness" that
have nothing to do with ethics. I'm a Pats fan myself,
but was it "fair" that all the AFC playoff teams had
to come through the cold of New England for a shot at
the Super Bowl? In poker, "home field advantage" can play
a part, and I'm not sure anyone on this forum would
suggest that we should make the tourists feel all warm
and cozy when they sit down. Poker is a competition,
and one that I like to win, so I don't see why I should
wish anyone to be on their best game. As far as putting
someone on tilt purposely, I think that's part of the
game. If you can't handle the pressure, you shouldn't
be playing at that table. The last thing I want to see
in poker is the type of "taming" there is in the NFL,
where players get fined for celebrating a touchdown.
You see "trash talk" constantly in sports, and I can
think of no more appropriate sport for it than poker,
which, at its crux, is a game of psychological warfare.
Whether I'm trying to captain a table, tilt a big stack,
or simply hide the fact that I'M tilting, I'm going to
use any weapons I have at my disposal, and I don't see
anything unethical about it. Tilt away.

P.S. There are places I draw the line. At the Sahara
tournament I played in, they allowed smoking, which
suited me just fine. The smoke bothered some of the
field, which was also just fine with me, but one of
the players who showed up late happened to be pregnant.
As much as I love to tilt people, my butts went out
until I busted her from the game. Cold and competitive
I may be, but there are lines I won't cross.

[spamuell]

I'm not sure anyone on this forum would suggest that we should make the tourists feel all warm and cozy when they sit down.

I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this forum would suggest that that's exactly how you want the tourists to feel when they sit down. If they sit down and start to feel miserable and not have fun, they'll leave, which is exactly what you don't want.

As for whether or not it's ethical to put someone on tilt intentionally - it's certainly not very nice. But, when people sit down at a poker table, they understand that they're going to risk the money that they buy-in. It happens to be a tactic that I'm reluctant to employ, as I prefer to play in a pleasant environment, but it's all part of the game.

[CrisBrown]

Hi rodeo,

Yes, poker is emerging as a "sport," but there are many models for sportsmanship, and I don't think poker must or should follow the testosterone-charged, win-at-all-costs model exhibited in the NFL.

Golf and tennis are no less sports than football, yet golfers and tennis players don't trash-talk each other. A handful of "colorful" tennis pros trash-talk the linesmen and referees, but even McEnroe and Connors didn't trash-talk each other.

I'd prefer that poker follow the golf/tennis model than the football model. The game has plenty of aggression inherent in its structure. I don't see a reason to add more, just to massage the egos of guys who want to believe they're on a masculine par with NFL stars....

Cris

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is a competition, and one that I like to win, so I don't see why I should wish anyone to be on their best game. As far as putting someone on tilt purposely, I think that's part of the game. If you can't handle the pressure, you shouldn't be playing at that table.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are elements of truth in what you say. You are referring exclusively to tournament play, which - by its very nature - is much more competitive than live, ring play. I suppose I didn't specify, but I was more referring to live play.

I don't have any data to support this supposition, but I would imagine that there is a great deal more "unhealthy gambling" going on in live games than tourneys. Because of the nature of addictive behavior, problem gamblers are much less likely to be involved in tournaments than live.

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't handle the pressure, you shouldn't
be playing at that table.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is merit to this statement when referring to the final table at a WPT tournament. I think we all agree that a regular ring game is a whole 'nother story.

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