Loose Games: Not giving them correct odds to chase vs. no slowplaying

[Still the Spank E]

That's so clear it's almost frightening--thank you!

[TaintedRogue]

Nobody mentioned a "short bankroll" but you. It's not in a post and it's not in the book.

[bernie]

1st remember that 'loose games' does not mean thinking players. you dont need 'better' players for the concepts in this section. some think you do. it's designed for play against the chasers. putting them in a spot where calling is wrong, and folding helps maximize your chance at winning the pot. a win/win situation. the idea is maximizing longterm against them should they call. not just shortterm. that's what casinos do in their pit games, isnt it? and they seem to do pretty well.

most of the money in holdem is made the later in the hand you are. understanding how you can lose the pot yet still have made money during the hand is how to understand many of these concepts. along with realizing that when a player wins a pot, he may have lost a ton longterm in dragging that pot. my post 'for rocklobster' is a good example of this. the guy called with over a 100-1 shot on the flop. not that he or his opponents knew his odds were that long, but there is no way he is going to make enough during that hand to overcome those odds. he dragged the pot, but look at how much he lost in doing so. this is also a step in understanding why you shouldnt mind bad beats.

the concepts in this section have made me alot of extra cash in those types of games and are worth exploring.

the summary at the end of that section is kind of interesting too. in relation to what they say about making the adjustments. the 'bet em if you got em' is fine. but not always optimal longterm.

b

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

"<with one big pair> you must therefore attempt to manipulate the pot size so that your opponent is making a mathematical mistake." Lets not forget that by "Manipulating the size of the pot" that YOU are making a "mistake" since if all hands were face up you would surely bet your hand that's the favorite

[/ QUOTE ]

No, No, No! When you have AA in a huge pot with a board showing K86r, you already know that you likely have the best hand...for now! By purposely allowing the flop to be checked through, or only calling if everyone calls before you, you are preventing the pot from becoming so large that anyone chasing with a gutshot or a lower pair will be more likely to fold on the turn, although if they do call, they are calling without the odds. Remember, when the pot is huge already, the primary goal is to do everything possible to win if from that point on--not to maximize the bets going into the pot if it makes it more likely that someone is going to outdraw you on the river.




[ QUOTE ]
You must be able to induce them into adusting their play disastrously (get them to draw dead or get them to fold the favorite) before any of this is even worth considering; and even then a bunch of it still doesn't add up.

Forget it. Bet'em when you've got'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't need to be drawing dead or folding favorites; they just need to be folding--period! When you have an overpair on the turn in a huge pot, you want to just win the pot. You don't want three different people to each be chasing to a different four or five outer--you want as many of them to fold as possible. However, if they do all chase to the river, at least you know each one is making a -EV play. But the extra times that you win this huge pot because you kept it from getting even larger (and caused someone to fold on the turn who would have then outdrawn you on the river) is worth more than the few extra bets that you'll make in the long run when you pump the pot on every street and win anyways.

[David Sklansky]

The concept of not giving them correct odds to chase is not simplistic. It only becomes a factor if you have bankroll worries, or if you yourself might fold the next round, or if by not pushing a small edge early, it increases the chances that you will be bet into the next rouund so you can thin out the field. If none of these things are true it is always better, theoretically to push any edge you might have on an early round, even if that gives the opponents the correct odds to chase on the next.

[Cosimo]

I read this as:

If you have a monster hand: slowplay if you need to give your opponents a chance to improve; play it fast if they are going to call anyway.

If your have a hand less than a monster: don't slowplay, UNLESS they are going to call anyway, in which case you are planning that they won't have pot odds to correctly call on the turn. (They might call anyway, but if they are doing so incorrectly you will profit from it.)

[Mike]

If you think of loose games as being a cooperative venture between yourself and the rest of the table it may help?

When you are strong you want as many people as possible playing with you so you have to help them by your betting lightly. Because your hand is so strong you have little to fear. That makes the biggest possible pot for your hand and everyone feels they had fun in that round and had a shot at winning the pot.

On the other side when your hand is somewhat weak but you have a good chance of making the nut by the river you also want them to make it possible for you to play your hand. So they should be cooperating with you so you can play your hand somewhat cheaply.

The biggest problem is deciding where exactly between those two extremes your hand lies. Cooperation in HE sounds funny but it makes sense when playing in loose games. When the game moves very far from a cooperative balance it either becomes a LAG game or a completely passive game.

Of course, this is imo.

[Henke]

[ QUOTE ]
If your have a hand less than a monster: don't slowplay, UNLESS they are going to call anyway, in which case you are planning that they won't have pot odds to correctly call on the turn. (They might call anyway, but if they are doing so incorrectly you will profit from it.)


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not absolutely certain about this, but from Davids reply above, if you don't think that your call will induce anyone to bet into you on the turn, you're better of raising on the flop. (Assuming you won't fold on the turn.) Just manipulating the pot so that your opponents won't have odds to call one bet on the turn doesn't automatically give more profit than betting/raising the flop and the turn.

[Chaos_ult]

[ QUOTE ]
say, pocket jj) and let everyone continue to play you run a risk letting all of these jokers with their 64s and similar nonsense continue to play. That's all I really meant

[/ QUOTE ]

If the game is loose, you really can't get the joker's to fold their 64s anyway, so you are trying to make it incorrect for them to play their hand. Again, try not to look so much at the shortrun. By manipulating the size of the pot when you have a good hand (say by just calling preflop with JJ), you are trying to make them call incorrectly with hands that do not have the odds to justify such action (by keeping the pot small enough). This is what makes you money in the longrun in loose games (IMHO anyway..)

Give a little preflop, to take it all back afterwards.

[Aaron Lovi]

Chesspain,

Your posts routinely make no sense. This last one is a prime example. You know just enough about poker to be a danger only to yourself.

I looked at your checking with AA thread as well from a couple weeks ago. It's strikingly similar to this post. Nearly every sentence contained a poker logic error.