QQ..When to let the ladies go

[jedi]

Now here's something I've been struggling with. When do I lay down a hand on the turn, and when do I duck into check-call mode? I would have 3-bet just like you did, but I would have just ducked and hoped for the best.

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I 3 bet for multiple reasons. 2) When I 3 bet a lot of players would cap this and lead the turn, at that point I can fold. 3) When he calls my 3 bet and C/R me again on the turn I can lay it down then.

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[Sarge85]

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i would not have 3 bet the flop.

Why not?

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Why Not - Having been in many similar hands, I don't three bet because our villian is coming from the nebulous area of the blinds. Calling the hero's PF raise with 45s or even A5s is far less like to happen outside of the blinds.

Given the action, I think you need to credit him with the 5. - Maybe I'm just a pushover, and burned to often.

[brian0729]

Hey Jedi,

I really think the 3 bet on the flop is key. I know a couple of other dont like it and thats ok, we dont all agree on everything. I three bet here probably 98% of the time.

When he calls the flop 3 bet I think there is a small chance I am ahead. So on the turn, when he bets into me I am going to call( I have seen 66-JJ enough times in this spot that Im not ready to fold just yet). I could raise and laydown to a three bet but because I have position I can check call the rest of the way for the same price.

If the BB checks to me on the turn I am going to bet, if he check raises me for a second time in the hand I would probably now lay it down.

On the river if he bets I call and if he C/R's me I am now going to call as well because the pot has grown to big to laydown, I believe anyway.

Now to add more confusion, this play was made against a typical party 2/4 player he wasnt terrible and played it pretty straight forward. Against a LAG, solid player or rock these plays change slightly. Having a read as always helps and is really necessary to save yourself those precious BB's. Know your enemy.

Sorry for being long winded. I hope my boss is standing over my shoulder right now. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Zetack]

When do I give this up. Should I have raised the turn and layed down to a three bet? I feel fishy just re reading it. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Comments appreciated.

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If the only question is between raising the turn and laying down to a three bet, or playing as you did, calling down the turn and the river definitely go with calling down the turn and the river. The cost is exactly the same to you (2 big bets) and you get to see his cards.

Raising the turn only does one thing for you, it snaps him off if he's bluffing at you but (1). You are pretty damn sure he's not bluffing at you and (2). if he is bluffing at you get him for a bet on the turn and one on the river instead of one bet if he abandons his bluff to your turn raise.

My only thought is you could think about bailing on the turn. Undoubtedly many here will think that's too weak. But seriously, you displayed strength pre-flop with a non-steal raise. Then you show strength by open betting and if he's hoping you're bluffing at the pot with something like A-K his hope diminishes quickly when you re-raise him on the flop. But then he comes out betting on the turn!

His check raise can't have been to isolate you, because you're the only one in. His check-raise could've been angling for a free card on the turn with something odd like 4-6 suited, a smallish overpair, or two overcards. It could've been a play on a perceived bluff by you. If its any of those things he would've reluctantly called your 3-bet. But when he comes out shooting on the turn, it looks unlikely his check-raise was any of those things. Instead his turn bet looks a lot like he either has a five or had two overcards and hit the king. Either way you are in trouble.

Sure its at least possible he could've had say jacks, but you would've thought the king would've given him pause. He could've been bluffing, but that's a pretty stone cold ballsy bluff on the turn, and to continue it on the river...well that's really strong...

Ok, I'm probably with you, I probably call him on the turn and the river. But I would've been pretty sure I was beat with each call. I would've at least thought about folding and saving two big bets which is real close to double the money you've already put in.

--Zetack

[brian0729]

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Ok, I'm probably with you, I probably call him on the turn and the river. But I would've been pretty sure I was beat with each call. I would've at least thought about folding and saving two big bets which is real close to double the money you've already put in.

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This was pretty much my exact process and why I posted the hand. I believe after reviewing the hand and getting the feed back calling down was the best play especially since I had position on him.