Call/Raise on the button preflop...anyone do this?

[AviD]

Don't you find value in both the deception and limp re-raise at all...even some of the time?

For example, per Schneids2k02's comments, Axs on the button. If there were more limpers involved, I think the Button is in perfect position for this type of re-raise when the SB/BB raises and all the limpers call.

Isn't this a big value bet if the flop hits you? Not to mention you close the action on all streets, so you can likely get a free look at the turn (again per Schneids2k02's assessment) if you have a 4 flush draw.

I agree this shouldn't be done by PPs, and only on occassion with certain limper scenarios and hands like Axs...but I don't think it is a never do catastrophy.

I'd have to agree with Schneids2k02 on this one...certainly seems viable at times.

[Munga30]

I agree with you. The cost of this deception is way too high and it doesn't represent a better hand than 77 so much as say "I am unorthodox."

I'll also add that it's not the frequency with which one chooses to limp-reraise 77 here that makes the play "good" or "bad". It's the frequency that, having made this move, you will have to give up the deception later in the hand and fold.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

Limp reraising in this spot is terrible. If I were in the hero's hand I would have capped PF and bet right out into him no matter what the flop was forcing him to pay at least two more sb's to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are at the table against an unfamiliar -- or even better yet -- a solid playing button who does a limp reraise here, and you have AK, I somehow doubt you are capping and autobetting any flop. Sorry, don't buy it. A button limp reraise screams AA or KK 95% of the time, and if you know this, it'll force you with your AK to clam up just a little.

EDIT: I would like to clarify, before it gets pointed out to me, that yes most solid playing people with AA or KK would have just raised, first, on the button. However, let's pretend for a minute you are the button, and in a live game, and the BB has pretty much telegraphed to you he/she is planning on raising PF. They're looking away from the table, back straight, with extra chips in their hands -- and you just know they're going to raise. So, why not limp reraise here? This is just one example of when you could see a solid player do it. Additionally, a limp might work out if the button has position on an extremely aggressive post-flop player, and would like to be able to raise that player's auto-bet and force the rest of the field to call two cold before the pot is mammothly large.
...There, think I covered my back ahead of time, enough

[Bob T.]

When I branded the guy a terrible player, it was before I saw his hand. After I saw it, I am sticking to my original assessment.

Terrible might have been too strong a word. It certainly brands the opponent as tricky, and unpredictable. I also think that it shows that the player has a lot of gamble in him, regardless of what his hand is, he is trying to build big pots, probably at the expense of expected value. So when you enter a pot with him, you are going to have to be prepared to gamble a little bit, because players that make this kind of move, are usually better at winning pots, then at waiting for the right situation to win pots, so you can expect them to put a lot of pressure on you, and you need to be prepared to play aggressively to isolate them, and also be prepared to showdown with them frequently.

Anyway, I can't think of a hand, where I think that limp reraising on the button after the pot is already multiway could possibly right, so I am going to assume that he misplayed his hand either on his first or second action. Guys that do that, usually make a lot of other mistakes also, so although it might not be a certaintly, I think it is very likely that he is not a solid player.

[Bob T.]

Really...I think that about half of the fish against whom I play at Party

Exactly. LOL.

[bernie]

alot of money? it was an extra small bet preflop. which, btw, he may also have the best hand at the moment. if i was able to limp-reraise, which schneid pointed out watching the players behind you, from LP, id do it much more often with huge overpairs. if you bet into me on the flop, im raising and finding out where im at then. another thing that really helps this play is his position which he can use to possibly blow a winning hand off the pot. not to mention it can get you an easy call closing the action to spike a set on the turn with nice implied odds if you hit it.

[ QUOTE ]
If I were in the hero's hand I would have capped PF and bet right out into him no matter what the flop was forcing him to pay at least two more sb's to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're forgetting you may have others in the hand and your worried about the last guy to act behind you. say you 'bet out' and get raised by a different player on the flop?

this is far from a HU hand here.

your raise would be to try and get the others out if you had AKo, IMO. depending on the limpers, the coldcalls behind your cap may tell you some of your outs are gone. and as another responder mentioned, AA and KK are very common limpreraise hands. youd be blowing alot of chips if you always capped at this point. however, suited AK i would, no problem.

i also mentioned that this isnt a regular play in an arsenal. if one played like this all the time, yeah, ya may lose a bit. though if you play well postflop with it, and players will pay you off...

but also as schnied said, if you're playing against guys you seem to always play with, it has even more value to try once in awhile. personally, i rarely limp reraise since i tend to raise alot of different hands preflop depending on the texture of the game.

but your taking 1 hand and basing a whole adjustment and assessment on a player you know little about assuming he plays loose a wild like this. and THAT'S a way to blow alot of money. id need to see much more than just this hand of this players play before i jump to those conclusions.

that and the fact the play really isnt that bad if used right.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
so I am going to assume that he misplayed his hand either on his first or second action.

[/ QUOTE ]

why does one way have to be wrong and the other right? maybe he decided to raise after he saw the action behind him but was initially just going to limp in.

[ QUOTE ]
It certainly brands the opponent as tricky, and unpredictable. I also think that it shows that the player has a lot of gamble in him, regardless of what his hand is, he is trying to build big pots, probably at the expense of expected value.

[/ QUOTE ]

tricky preflop players can be a pain in the ass if they play real well post flop. it shows he may have some gamble preflop. maybe. nowhere in this thread has it shown or been mentioned how postflop was played. so basically your basing it on preflop play alone. not a great thing to do when assessing a player.

i may agree a little more if his hand were something like QJo. but his hand was a decent multiway hand. and if he hits it, who's going to put him on it? especially if they also catch some of the flop. been interesting to see how long the hero would take to put him on 77 if the flop came K K 7, or A K 7.

b

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is very likely that he is not a solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I knew for sure my opponents would make that judgment about me just by doing a call-reraise on the button, regardless of whether I have to showdown my hand, I think I would willingly give up an extra SB approximately 100% of the time for the tradeoff.

[brian0729]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are at the table against an unfamiliar -- or even better yet -- a solid playing button who does a limp reraise here, and you have AK, I somehow doubt you are capping and autobetting any flop. Sorry, don't buy it. A button limp reraise screams AA or KK 95% of the time, and if you know this, it'll force you with your AK to clam up just a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never seen a solid player try this limp re raise w/ AA and KK from this position. I have rarely seen this move tried at all. A solid player is going to raise the first time against the limpers. IF I raise from the BB and get limp re raised from the button I am going to play as I stated because I dont by for a minute that he has AA or KK. He may be doing it for value (which I dont think is the case here) with Axs or a smaller PP but not the usual hands. If he does play AA or KK this way I am totally in Bob's corner. This doesnt automatically make him a bad player but I will be closely watching him while we play because I suspect he is not very good.

[brian0729]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you find value in both the deception and limp re-raise at all...even some of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

If there were a table full of limpers I can see some value in a raise here, much like raising a small pocket pair with a table full of limpers, but with two limpers I see no value here.