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#11
12-24-2003, 02:26 PM
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Re: Mirage 6-12, JJ in BB
I expect that you won.
This pot was nice sized, not monstrous, so I would have just bet the flop, and hope that someone with top pair raised. Any overcards that you eliminate help your chances. One tough thing to consider, is when you have a middle pair, there are really no blanks, every card either pairs the board, is an overcard, or improves the chances that a straight is out there. One nice thing about the whiffed checkraise, is that when you bet the turn, you are making everyone face a double flop bet, so in terms of eliminating opponents, you do just as well by betting the turn, as you would with checkraising the flop. 
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#15
12-24-2003, 02:55 PM
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Re: Mirage 6-12, JJ in BB
Well with the objective being to win this pot ASAP...I think a flop bet is certainly best. You represent strength and force others to pay out more (which is what you want anyway, even if one of them makes their hand...N others are paying to play). Come the turn, unimproved...and your followup bet...you can expect some folds (I'd think). Check-raising here binds many to the pot unless you have a late bettor and raise immediately after...but I think thats a gamble.
Just my .02. I only go for CRs when there is minimal or no chance of being outdrawn, or I am raising for value on a semi-bluff nuts hand, or I am supremely confident that my opponents are simply calling stations that have little to no chance to win (even if I don't have the best hand). Outside of those optimal conditions, I am betting aggressively to limit the field and win the pot ASAP.
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#16
12-24-2003, 02:56 PM
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Re: Mirage 6-12, JJ in BB
[ QUOTE ]
Christ. I just got called down by a loose-agressive borderline maniac who had queen high when I bet the end on a busted draw. I'm an idiot. Or at least I fele like one right now. [/ QUOTE ] Well, look at it this way -- that's some good avertisimg. If you're going to spend a bet in losing, you definitely want to lose horribly and publically. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#17
12-24-2003, 02:56 PM
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Re: Mirage 6-12, JJ in BB
I think one thing I failed to take into account is that the two to my immediate left are the type who look for a reason to fold. The other players are the normal types who look for reasons to call. Given that a bet from me will probably start a reaction of folding by the two on my left, the bet looks more attractive to me than it first did.
Out of curiousity, let's say that someone had raised PF and I had made it 3 bets and the same number called. Would this be a better time to try to CR the flop? Or with this position, do I just have to bet away? The turn double bet does present the players with the same $12 decision as a flop C/R does, of course, but they also can make an easier decision knowing the turn card. I know you know this, just pointing it out.
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#18
12-24-2003, 03:02 PM
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Re: Mirage 6-12, JJ in BB
Btw, fwiw, this was not a "top pair raise the flop" type of table. People were calling with overpairs preflop, on the flop, etc. It was the type of table where you were stunned that they never put in more bets with KK/QQ, and they think you are a maniac for putting a raise in with ATs on a board of A83 because you don't even have two pair. (Maybe with their betting standards, that raise is a maniacal move... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )
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#19
12-24-2003, 04:11 PM
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Re: Mirage 6-12, JJ in BB
Just my .02. I only go for CRs when there is minimal or no chance of being outdrawn, or I am raising for value on a semi-bluff nuts hand, or I am supremely confident that my opponents are simply calling stations that have little to no chance to win (even if I don't have the best hand).
You should reread HPFAP. Your thinking in this hand is overly simplistic. Sometimes check-raising is clearly the best play when your hand is very vulnerable.
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