GC upgrade one bad thing i noticed in tournys now

[Gaming Club]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the relevant chat transcript.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks BB for posting the chat transcript -- this is clear abuse that we cannot allow to go unpunished. We've thus removed his all-in protection privileges with immediate effect for the next two months.

Here's the email we sent him:

Dear X

Please be advised that your intentional abuse of our all-in facility (see chat transcript below) is contrary to the spirit of fair play at our poker room. Our policy on this matter states as follows:

"Abuse of All-in protection ... may result in the following:
- Players being disqualified and removed from the tournament
- Players forfeiting all buy-in amounts and entrance fees
- Players being permanently banned from the system"

Our records indicate that you have gone all-in twice before, and that the last incident was 10 days ago. We therefore do not allege that you are a persistent abuser, but we nonetheless cannot let such blatant abuse pass without taking appropriate action.

We have therefore decided to remove your all-in protection privileges for a period of two (2) months. You may apply for them to be reinstated on 27 January 2004 if you so wish. Following reinstatement, any further evidence of abuse on your part will result in your all-in protection privileges being removed permanently.

Best regards,
The Gaming Club
www.GamingClubPoker.com

--- Chat Transcript:

TR4RAIDERS1> have to use an all in sorry dude
> TR4RAIDERS1, you have 10 seconds to respond
> TR4RAIDERS1, you have 5 seconds to respond
The_Outlaw> man
> TR4RAIDERS1 was taken all-in because he/she did not act in time
> The_Outlaw wins 64,000 with Two Pair, Aces over Nines
TR4RAIDERS1> nh
The_Outlaw> w/3 guys l eft
> The_Outlaw, you have 10 seconds to respond
TR4RAIDERS1> still have 1 left
> wetwist, you have 10 seconds to respond
TR4RAIDERS1> gl wet
> The_Outlaw, you have 10 seconds to respond
> The_Outlaw, you have 10 seconds to respond
> wetwist wins 52,000 with Two Pair, Fives over Fours
> The_Outlaw wins 52,000 with Two Pair, Fives over Fours
> The_Outlaw wins 24,000
[Observer]KeyserSoze> raiders a question .. btw well played
> TR4RAIDERS1 wins 24,000
[Observer]KeyserSoze> what did u mean by have to use an all in
> TR4RAIDERS1 wins 48,000
TR4RAIDERS1> they give 2 all ins
TR4RAIDERS1> sucks but...
[Observer]KeyserSoze> yes but u mean u used it on purpose?
TR4RAIDERS1> yes
> The_Outlaw, you have 10 seconds to respond
> The_Outlaw, you have 5 seconds to respond
TR4RAIDERS1> its bs
[Observer]KeyserSoze> ty thats cheating
> wetwist wins 61,705
TR4RAIDERS1> but everyone else does it

[Gaming Club]

[ QUOTE ]

before the upgrade in all the tournaments there was no all in protectin! I liked the fact that there was no all ins.

Now it says you have 2 all ins in tournys. I think you shouldnt allow any all ins in tournament play.


[/ QUOTE ]
HUGE apologies to everyone -- this was an error in the set-up of this specific tournament.

The default for all other tournaments remains no all-ins.

[BigBluffer]

To TGC Guy:

I hope this doesn't come across as sour grapes, but I honestly think that taking away Raiders' all-in protections for 2 months is nothing more than a slap on the wrist. The rules you quoted allow for a decision to disqualify an abuser from a tournament. Raiders not only abused the all-ins, he announced ahead of time he was going to, then he gloated about it afterwards. Why bother having the disqualification sanction available if you're not going to enforce it in even the most blatant cases of abuse?

How much was the bet that he refused to call? That's at least how much he would've lost on that hand. Would it have caused him to not win the tourney? Possibly. Certainly 2nd and 3rd place were affected.

Sorry TGC. I think you guys missed the boat in this case. Just my opinion.

BB

[Gaming Club]

[ QUOTE ]

I hope this doesn't come across as sour grapes, but I honestly think that taking away Raiders' all-in protections for 2 months is nothing more than a slap on the wrist. The rules you quoted allow for a decision to disqualify an abuser from a tournament. Raiders not only abused the all-ins, he announced ahead of time he was going to, then he gloated about it afterwards. Why bother having the disqualification sanction available if you're not going to enforce it in even the most blatant cases of abuse?
How much was the bet that he refused to call? That's at least how much he would've lost on that hand. Would it have caused him to not win the tourney? Possibly. Certainly 2nd and 3rd place were affected.


[/ QUOTE ]

BB,

We can do nothing more than eat humble pie on this whole fiasco. Fiasco is possibly too kind a word in fact, since further investigation has brought a whole mess of all-ins to the fore in this tournament.

Once again, we can't easily tell who did so intentionally, since not all of the parties were dumb enough to post their intentions so we can't be sure whose all-ins weren't genuine connectivity issues. However, clearly something is wrong when all but one of top 10 finishers had at least one all-in during the event.

So what do we do? Do we disqualify the lot of them even though we can't tell who acted intentionally and who didn't? Who do we give the prize money to, when a substantial portion of the remaining participants (including those that finished out of the money) did the same thing?

Not disallowing all-ins was a HUGE screw up on our part for this event, and we're extremely disappointed in how these players have acted. From our interactions here on the zoo we'd started to hope that the absence of casino-like jackpots would mean that poker players would be less likely to try to game the system for personal advantage, but maybe we shouldn't take the pleasantly high integrity of the zoo as representative of the general population.

*sigh* ... this is kind of like trying to deal with a mob that has looted a store ... do you string up one guy who you know is guilty as an example to the rest, or do you throw everyone in the slammer regardless of who is innocent and who isn't? Is either of these options fair?

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry TGC. I think you guys missed the boat in this case. Just my opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry we've disappointed you. We honestly tried to follow the course of action that we thought was fairest (or maybe least unfair) in the circumstances.

In the end, when we sent out the email to TR4RAIDERS1, we had decided that the average player in this event was no less guilty than the next guy of unacceptable behaviour, so punishment of only one person wouldn't be any fairer than punishing everyone. This is what led us to the course of action that we took -- we're more than open to criticism of what we chose to do, but we do hope that you appreciate the difficulty of the situation.

Anyway (eventually [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), here's our proposed resolution to this matter. For the time being, we have removed the $1,800 in tourney winnings from this player's account, and have sent him an email asking him to review this thread. He will thus have the opportunity to defend himself if he so chooses, after which we will take a final decision as to whether or not to disqualify him and forfeit his winnings. We'd thus appreciate it if everyone with an opinion on this matter would cast their vote (i.e. disqualify or not) by way of a voice (post) vote -- we've chosen to do this instead of a normal poll since we will weight our decision by reference to who casts each vote and what they have to say.

Hope this gets us back on the boat you think we missed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Gaming Club]

Comments and opinions please - do we disqualify or not?

---------------

Dear Tom

On further consideration of the circumstances surrounding the $10k Dash4Cash tournament, in which (as per our previous email) you engaged in blatant all-in abuse, we have decided to temporarily withhold your winnings from the event, until we have decided what further action to take.

In terms of the All-in Abuse Policy, blatant all-in abuse allows us to disqualify you from the tournament, in which case your $1,800 in winnings will be forfeited.

In the interests of fairness, we have posted details of this situation on the twoplustwo.com poker message board (internet gambling section). Our intention is to poll the opinions of the members there before making a decision. You are welcome to take this as an opportunity to defend yourself. We believe that you will find that the members there are fair and honest people, and that they will give you a fair hearing.

The link for the relevant message thread is:
.....

Best regards,
Gaming Club

[Sheriff Fatman]

Now that is more like it! Regardless of the criticism I've laid on the other issue I cannot fault this action in the slightest.

Sherriff

[Gaming Club]

[ QUOTE ]
Now that is more like it! Regardless of the criticism I've laid on the other issue I cannot fault this action in the slightest.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stick with us ... we always get it right eventually [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Gomez22]

Good decision, TGC.... kudos for stepping up to the plate..... Although I do not play in many tourneys, I really think the all-in policy should be: NO ALL-INS in tourneys. I realize this was designed to help those who may become dis-connected, but the abuse is overwhelming at any and all sites I have played that have all-ins in place. Honest poker players have no use for all-ins, and I seriously doubt that ANY legit site would want anything less than honest players at thier site.

Good Job, and thank you for responding in the way in which you did.......

'Mez

PS: I honestly can't believe your stance with us at the forum. Your attention here is one thing that makes me enjoy playing at TGC, and for this, you have earned at least 1 loyal player.

[Gaming Club]

[ QUOTE ]

Good decision, TGC.... kudos for stepping up to the plate.....


[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks ... it was a painful journey, but we got there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

Although I do not play in many tourneys, I really think the all-in policy should be: NO ALL-INS in tourneys.


[/ QUOTE ]
That is in fact the usual rule -- last night's tourney was just set up wrong [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
PS: I honestly can't believe your stance with us at the forum. Your attention here is one thing that makes me enjoy playing at TGC, and for this, you have earned at least 1 loyal player.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks again. As previously noted, this is too much fun to be called a job [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[GrinningBuddha]

With regards to the intentional all-in, I would disqualify Tr4raiders at the point that he did it, and give him the cash he had earned up to that point. So if he did it with 7 players left, give him the prize for 7th place, and bump up everyone who finished 2nd-7th. I don't recall him doing this earlier, and was having a good tournament (knocking out yours truly with KK vs. my QQ as well). I bear no grudge to Tr4raiders, but I don't feel that he, nor any other player, should be able to intentionally be able to benefit from abusing the all-in system.

I don't feel he should need to forfeit all of his winnings, he did earn his spot a the final table, after all.