Calling a raise with 98off

[I.Rowboat]

Believe me, I am not ignoring this fact. I still think UTG will raise with a better hand than you will be calling with. Even if he is raising with 66, he has a better hand.

If you want to make a play for the dead money, 3 bet with the 98o and see if you are 4 bet. The out-of-position 3 bet will usually get the attention of the same "aware" player you hope is raising with crap. This will set up a better situation for you to steal the pot on the flop if the flop misses your opponent.

However, from my own experience, UTG is almost certainly raising with a better hand than you. Many of the hands that will give you a straight draw will give your opponent either two pair or TP/TK, meaning that your pair outs are very suspect if overcards hit on the flop. so while the pot is laying you decent odds for your $10 call, your particular cards are weak, and become weaker if you pick up a high straight draw. Why not just wait for a better situation?

I don't think calling is a good choice with these cards from this position, so if it were my money and I respected the raiser, I would fold most of the time/raise some of the time. The fact that no one three bet it after the action passed the new player should also tell you that the big cards may be right where you should expect them to be, in the hands of the UTG bettor.

Since the original post asked about calling, I think this is an easy fold most of the time.

BTW, I would much rather play the 55 you mention than 98o in this situation -- this is a very different match up if you are starting with a pair, even a small one.

[I.Rowboat]

Actually, I like headsup and shorthanded play a lot, but I don't think calling with these cards in this situation is such a great play. If I'm going to play, I'd rather raise and try to take the pot on the flop or the turn, representing a much bigger hand. I'll do this some percentage of the time if my table image good (TAG), and for my table image to be good I'll need to fold here most of the time.

No disrespect intended here -- if you want to play this hand more often than I do, hey, more power to you. But if I'm the TAG player raising UTG, you would be better off folding than calling if it's your BB.

[Clarkmeister]

He never said it was a tight aggressive doing the raising. If its Andy Fox raising UTG, I'm likely folding. But players with those standards and ability are few and far between. My experience is that between the 10-20 and 20-40 limits, the vast majority of players have UTG raising standards that are rather wide. Against an average player you are just giving up too much.

And if I'm going to 3-bet (which would be rare indeed), I'm definitely waiting until I'm suited. This is a simple case of the pot laying you the correct price, and taking it. No reason to get cute here and 3-bet.

[Mackie]

I think folding is out of the question, and re-raising is ok too. When I call I have no doubt that UTG has a better hand than I do. That's not the issue, IMHO. Because your straight draw will likely make the other player's hand, you can expect to get paid off handsomely when you do make it. You are not playing for pair outs here, if overcards fall without an open-ended draw you give up fast. It's a cheap muck. It's when the flop comes 8 or 9 high that makes this risk worth taking as you will have the best hand more often than not. This is where the fact that there was a poster comes into play. Dead money, in my experience, encourages over-agressive pre-flop play. Not to mention when you flop a really big hand (2 pr or better) once again you will get paid off most of the time.

[anatta]

With the extra money in the pot, I would call in the BB like you did. Without it, it depends. What I am looking for is someone who can fold a hand if I apply heat with a str8 draw or even a gutshot. I don't want a "showdown any ace (or king)" type. Your image (the tighter the better) helps here.

[I.Rowboat]

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding is out of the question, and re-raising is ok too. When I call I have no doubt that UTG has a better hand than I do. That's not the issue, IMHO. Because your straight draw will likely make the other player's hand, you can expect to get paid off handsomely when you do make it. You are not playing for pair outs here, if overcards fall without an open-ended draw you give up fast. It's a cheap muck. It's when the flop comes 8 or 9 high that makes this risk worth taking as you will have the best hand more often than not. This is where the fact that there was a poster comes into play. Dead money, in my experience, encourages over-agressive pre-flop play. Not to mention when you flop a really big hand (2 pr or better) once again you will get paid off most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to be a nit about this, but your post is contradictory. One the one hand, you say that you are not playing for pair outs, while on the other, you say that you are playing for an 8 or 9 high flop. "Because your straight draw will likely make the other player's hand, you can expect to get paid off handsomely when you do make it." Maybe, but you will only make a straight a small portion of the time you flop an open ender, and given the weak nature of your holding, there is a very real possibility that SOME percentage of those straights will lose to bigger straights. and that will cost you more in the long run than you will make those times when your straight wins.

Ask yourself how much you like this hand if the flop comes 9TJ? Or even 89T? And even if players get overly aggressive pre-flop when there is dead money in the pot, what constitutes a "weak" UTG raise? For an average 10-20 player, I believe QJo (or maybe TJs) is about the weakest holding you will see here opening for a raise UTG, even with an extra $20 in the pot. Maybe 77 or 88 (the later of which has you dominated), but you are not going to see someone raise UTG with K6s in a normal game. So yeah, if you get the miracle flop of 567 or 998 you are golden, but how many chips will you allow yourself to lose when the flop comes TJQ and your opponent isn't showing any signs of backing off? 98o is a hand that is easily dominated by many of the hands you can expect the PFR to hold. I would rather not take the chance of being dominated and having to catch big just to win a pot that will have a relatively small percentage of dead money in it, especially when compared to the flop, turn, and river bets I can expect to put in if I hit to my hand and am forced to continue. $10 to win $55 doesn't tell the whole story, as it will cost you another $50 to play this through to the end if you both catch a piece of the flop, and you will be catching the small side of any flop much more often than you will the large side.

My point is simply this: 98o is a crappy hand, even with an extra $20 in the pot. The cards aren't high, they aren't suited, and the straights they can make are vulnerable to exactly the hands you can expect to see an UTG raiser hold. I understand that for many players, this is an automatic call. I used to play this way, too, but I no longer think this is a good play, and certainly not an automatic one.

You don't have to agree with me. It's clear that I am in the minority on the play of this hand in this situation. Enough said.

[ACPlayer]

Clarkmeister's point is not that your opponent does not have a better hand -- he does. The question is is the pot attractive enough to chase. Reraising is not really an option here as a norm.

IMO against a tight/solid raiser the hand is a toss away. Against a a typical or slightly loose (but predictable player) it is probably playable, thanks to the dead money. It is also a hand that could, IMO, develop into a leak in the hands of many a player.

Note that if a player will raise AQ, KQs in addition to premium pairs you have approx one in three chance of outflopping their non-pair hands. You still have to hit twice against TT-AA.

This hand has one advantage over 55 post-flop -- if you are chasing you are chasing with 5 outs. With 55 you are not getting the odds to flop a set and when you chase you chase drawing thin.

[Mackie]

"Sorry to be a nit about this, but your post is contradictory. One the one hand, you say that you are not playing for pair outs, while on the other, you say that you are playing for an 8 or 9 high flop."

Sorry for the confusion. Since earlier you said "your pair outs are very suspect if overcards hit on the flop" I assumed by pair outs you meant continue to play if there are overcards on the flop. You are certainly playing for pair outs on the flop. If the flop comes 89T, are you kidding me? I love that flop. I'll probably wait until the turn to check raise (provided no 7, T, or J comes up). With a flop like 9TJ, you will have the best hand often enough to continue. You can still get away from it if a T, J, or Q turns.

I guess the idea about these hands is this: Most of the time the UTG raiser will end up with the best hand, but most of the time when he does, it will cost you no more bets. Sometimes you will end up with the best hand, and when you do, you will almost always collect post-flop bets from the UTG player. You can get away from a A36 flop easily. He cannot get away from a flop of 369 easily.

I think your point is that this is more than offset by the times when you both make your hand and 89 comes out on the short end. I don't agree. You cannot fold a TJQ flop, but this exact flop does not occur often enough to worry about it. Flops of 567, 67T, 7TJ are just as likely.

[rivaridge]

"Now if your mindset is such that you dont feel comfortable unless you *do* flop 2 pair or better, maybe you need to work on your shorthanded postflop gameplay"

Maybe so but, if you think that one should call an EP raiser with 8-9 offsuit out of position just because there is an extra bet in the pot then maybe you should consider working on your shorthanded pre-flop play.

[slavic]

His post seems fairly straight forward. You are getting fair odds to see this flop with all but the worst of hands. You are going to see this flop.

I'm not reraising because I don't have to. I gain nothing, he has the best hand pre-flop I'm willing to acknowledge that and if I catch something I like he'll know it when I check raise him.

If it's a flop and a wiff it's a fold, but if your getting odds to draw you have to draw, to play it different is to give up too much.