Bet my draw, hit my hand, and now it's two bets back to me...

[Nate tha' Great]

The table being passive does two things for 'ya:

(1) It means that you're more likely to get a number of callers, giving you proper value on your bet.

(2) It means that you're less likely to get raised, which would reduce that value by limiting the number of callers in front of the raiser.

[ElSapo]

I think it cuts down on the possibility of the next player raising and clearing out the field. Of course, if he raised and a bunch of players called two you could three-bet. But if I'm drawing I'd like money from many players going into the pot, not two bets from me and UTG.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Call and go for the overcall by the original raiser. I think your hand is good better than half the time.

[Brian]

Hi ElSapo,

Generally I don't Bet my draws unless it's a semi-bluff. Of course you want to bet them every now and again to vary your game, but I don't want anyone to get scared off by a raise, and I don't want to get myself isolated.

-Brian

[ElSapo]

Generally I don't Bet my draws unless it's a semi-bluff.

Depending on the number of people in the hand, not betting your draws is giving up a lot - along the same principle as raising for value.

[Brian]

Hi ElSapo,

In a situation where you are able to bet your draw for value, I would say almost always the bet is going into the pot anyways. I've certainly raised my draws for value plenty of times, but I think it's a rare situation where you could bet your draw for value and the bet wouldn't still go into the pot if you checked.

Of course it depends on the type of table and what the Flop is, but if I have 1-2 opponents, I'll generally bet my draw as a semi-bluff. If I have 3 opponents, depending on the texture of the board, sometimes I'll Bet as a semi-bluff. With 4 or more opponents, I'll generally check and call. If it gets checked around, then most likely had I bet, I would have gotten only 1 caller, in which case it isn't a bet for value. Sometimes you'll bet the Flop and get 2 callers, in which case you are breaking even, which is fine; however, you need 3 callers before your bet with the flush draw has become a value bet. And unless your table is just full of calling stations that never, ever bet, I think in that situation had you checked, the bet would have gone into the pot anyways. And what do you gain by checking? You don't give anyone an opportunity to raise and isolate you and/or scare off people who would've called for 1 bet.

I could certainly see some situations where it is correct to bet your flush draw, but if this is your default play as you described, I think you should re-evaluate.

-Brian

[chesspain]

You should definately call here. The river ace could certainly have made someone else's straight or two pair.

[ElSapo]

Hey Brian... I sense this thread is dying out, but there are a couple of things I wanted to bring up. If posters with more experience than I have want to comment, I'd love to hear what you have to say as well.

I could certainly see some situations where it is correct to bet your flush draw, but if this is your default play as you described, I think you should re-evaluate.

I do tend to bet my flush draws, for a number of reasons.

In early position, ideally, I'd get a bunch of callers and a raise and be able to three-bet for value.

In late position, if it's checked to me, I can bet and many times I'll get to the river for half-price as I'm the only one who's shown strength.

I don't generally worry about knocking people out with my bet, especially if it's an overcard flush draw. On a low, uncoordinated board, if I'm on a nut flush draw there's a chance my bet will knock out an Axs who hit his kicker, and will then clean up my overcard outs.

I'll also raise for a free card, depending on where the bet comes from. Obviously, if it's directly to my right, I'm better off calling and keeping other callers in.

With 4 or more opponents, I'll generally check and call.

With four or more opponents, if someone bets and you get that many callers then I think it's an easy raise (again, depending on where the bet comes from).

I don't worry too much about getting checkraised in late position -- it happens, but at Party 2/4 not regularly enough to take away value from the betting the flop.

And what do you gain by checking? You don't give anyone an opportunity to raise and isolate you and/or scare off people who would've called for 1 bet.

Yes, but when the flush does hit and I've been check-calling along, many times you wont get action on a bet or raise since your play will scream 'draw' to many players. By betting, I tend to disguise my hand more - as was the case here. Getting raised and re-raised, as happened here, was of course the extreme result and took me by surprise. Obviously, though, they didn't read me on a flush draw.

Like I said, in many - though not all - situations, betting my draws is the default play. So if it needs rethinking, I'm looking to understand better.

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
I took it down, and was amazed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You hit the ideal card to give someone 2 pair and you certainly didn't play like a flush draw. I like the call plan and hope for the overcall. Glad you didn't consider folding. calling 2 cold on the river sure feels strange but in big pots, it can often be right. Ask GuyOnTilt's opponent he moved off KK or AA in his 4-8 hand?

[CrackerZack]

You're 2-1 to make it by the river but realistically you probably want 3 people to call, 4 to call and a raiser to 3-bet as if you miss the turn, you're gonna check-call and won't be getting 4-1 (most of the time) on that round so you're using the overlay in the pot. I often bet into a number of opponents in this place also even if I know I won't take it down here but I don't expect many to fold. This works especially well if you've played TPTK recently by betting the flop and c/r the turn as they can be leary of you although often on party they aren't paying attention. When the turn helps you out I'd go either way with bet or check/call. I'd probably check/call and if I hit the straight, c/r the river as it came runner-runner and if I hit the flush, bet out.