Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions

[mrwatson23]

They most certainly do advocate this strategy. You have not done your research. Go to Ultimate Bet and download Howard Lederer's seminar on limit hold'em. Note that the strategy I am referring to is to never limp in if you are first to act, or if no one has entered the pot voluntarily before you. It is not that they say you should raise every hand you play. Do a search on rgp or look in the archives here for more on this debate. Abdul and Sklansky and Malmuth have argued about it on both forums.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
They most certainly do advocate this strategy. You have not done your research. Go to Ultimate Bet and download Howard Lederer's seminar on limit hold'em. Note that the strategy I am referring to is to never limp in if you are first to act, or if no one has entered the pot voluntarily before you. It is not that they say you should raise every hand you play. Do a search on rgp or look in the archives here for more on this debate. Abdul and Sklansky and Malmuth have argued about it on both forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just changed your position. In your first post you had nothing about only UTG play or being forst to act at all. Simply admit you were wrong and are now trying to crawl out of the whole you dug even though you are still incorrect.


Here is a chart from Abdul's site:

Tight Game Opening Strategy



Raise and call 2
QQ JJ TT KQs KTs JTs

Raise and call 1
77 QJs KJs AQ AJ

Limp-reraise / raise & call
AKs AQs AK

Limp & call 1
66 55 A9s A8s A7s KQ

Limp-reraise
AA KK 99 88 AJs ATs



You will notice the limp/call hands with no regard as to position.

And another chart by Abdul:

Loose-Aggressive Game Opening Strategy



Limp-call 2 / raise & reraise
99 88

Limp-reraise / raise & reraise
AK AKs

Raise & reraise
AA KK

Raise & call 2
A5s A4s A3s KQs AQ

Raise & call 1
AJ KQ

Limp & call 1
QJs JTs QTs 66

Limp & call 2
ATs A9s A8s A7s A6s KJs KTs 77

Limp-reraise
QQ JJ TT AQs AJs

Still has limping in as acceptable.

[slavic]

hmm do you have a link?

[J.R.]

Although I disagree that all these players advocate never open-limping (and most of the commentary I have seen from Ferguson involves tournament strategy, which is different from ring game strategy) you are wrong to state this about mrwatson23:

[ QUOTE ]
In your first post you had nothing about only UTG play or being forst to act at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mistakenly attempt to nitpick when he said this in his original post (emphasis added):

[ QUOTE ]
I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy:

[/ QUOTE ]

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Abdul certainly does advocate this position. I have read his pre-flop strategy at posev.com many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not the way Abdul actually plays anymore.

[J.R.]

Do you mind sharing anything you might know of his current play that is different?

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I disagree that all these players advocate never open-limping (and most of the commentary I have seen from Ferguson involves tournament strategy, which is different from ring game strategy) you are wrong to state this about mrwatson23:

[ QUOTE ]
In your first post you had nothing about only UTG play or being forst to act at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mistakenly attempt to nitpick when he said this in his original post (emphasis added):

[ QUOTE ]
I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy:

[/ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

JR you would have done yourself a great service to have avoided this thread entirely. Since you opened your mouth and inserted your foot allow me to give it a little shove.

In Bridge you open, in jacks or better draw you open, in beer drinking you open, even in 7Stud you open (more commomly called the "bring-in). In holdem you call, fold or raise the action is already open. Calling is also called limping, pretty straightforward. Any game with forced blinds is already open so nothing you do from the UTG position on can be called an open bet. Since his terminology meant nothing I could not read his mind as well as you.


At any rate terminology aside the players he named do not advocate never limping whether first, 2nd, 3rd to act nor in any position for that matter.

[mrwatson23]

"I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy." --Direct quote from my original post. Opening refers to being first to act either because you are UTG or because everyone to your right has folded. I thought that was well known poker terminology, I guess I was wrong. What did you think Sklansky meant when he said "Open more hands than you'll call with"?
Secondly, here is a quote from Abdul's Hold'em Preflop Strategy: "In games where a raise generally gets 1 or 2 callers, but rarely steals the blinds, open-raising with any playable hand is very reasonable and helps avoid leaking information."

Oh, here is Abdul's response to the same question on rgp:

Subject: Misc. questions for Sklansky, Lederer, Weideman, Negreanu, Abdul, etc.
View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2002-12-20 18:52:38 PST

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...gambling.poker

mrwatson23@hotmail.com (Mike Watson) writes:

> For the following questions, assume a typical 9 or 10 handed hold'em
> game:
>
> 1. Should you ever open-limp, or should you always either open-raise
> or fold?

It depends on what you mean by "typical." I prefer to raise or fold,
because of what happens to a lone limper in the typical
(i.e., aggressive) games I play.

Here is Howard Lederer's response from the same thread:
"I will assume a high limit game that is seven handed. This would be a more typical game I play in."

> 1. Should you ever open-limp, or should you always either open-raise
> or fold?

"Almost always open-raise or fold."

Any questions?

[J.R.]

From Abdul's posev.com article you quoted before.

"Example: You are in early position, 6 off the button, in a game that's so loose that you always see a flop, usually 5-8 way for 1 bet or 4-6 way for 2-4 bets. The pot is not yet opened. How do you play your hand?"

"FACING LIMPERS


You should raise an opened pot when you will win the pot more than your fair share of the time or your hand would play better without additional players in the pot."


"Most people think that you should play looser after limpers compared to opening."

It seems Abdul's terminology, which is partly the subject of this thread, uses the term "open" to refer to a hand where no one has voluntarily entered the pot. Fair enough if you believe the phrases open-limping and open-raising should not be used to refer to the situation where one is the first one to voluntarily enter a hold'em pot with a limp or a raise, respectively, but that's what the phrases open-limp and open-raise commonly refer to, and that's what mrwatson23 was refering to. Lets get back to the point, that abdul does not always advocate raising when you are the first player to voluntarily enter the pot.

[J.R.]

Abdul and Howard did not say they would never* open-limp in the thread you posted (they said "prefer" and "almost always" open-raise) and further qualified their answers by stating they applied in specific types of games ("aggressive" and "a high limit game that is seven handed") so don't those answers indicate you either 1) mistated their positions or 2) ignored their answers to your actual question?


* sorry for the double negative.