KK in the big blind - facing a big raise

[limon]

i've been playin big bet for a long time, you have to think much more dynamically if you are going to succeed in this game. an all in re-raise pre flop bluff is NEVER a good idea. If you're in a game where you need to make plays like this to survive your game selection is sooo bad you will go broke VERY quick. so taking that out of the question, noticing there is no way the limpers can call even $30 to take a flop with the stack sizes in question my play is still the best. i dunno nuthin' bout no ev but i've made this play for years and it works. i hate to even give such good advice to on line stiffs.

[crockpot]

if you are facing an opponent who will throw away anything but aces, as you say, then you must concede that an all-in semi-bluff can be profitable here if he will make the initial raise with a variety of hands. you cannot have it both ways. pick a position and stick with it.

[kelvin474]

how is it dynamic thinking to not even consider that raise limon?

also, EV is kinda incontrovertible- if a play actually has +EV, then it's a good play, unless you can think of something with an even higher +EV.

[NLfool]

Ok so the buyin is $100 max you've had time to build it to $150 you should have some pertinent info about this player. Now in real life the chances of AA vs KK is roughly 1 in ~620 give or take. I've played way more than 620 live hands and have had KK and run into AA once. Online I've seen KK vs. AA four times in less than 3 hours. I didn't play more than 500 hands as I was trying to clear my bonus and was roughly at 350 raked hands when I finished my session. Being as it may I'd call the flop and bet like $20 telling or shouting out to him I've got a piece of the flop. If he is overbetting preflop he will overbet post flop also so you can't catch trips to the top pair you're representing or your supposed kicker. If he overbets you're done. You can save you money for better situations.

[limon]

listen...theres lots of ways, times and place to get all of your money in. an all in pre flop semi bluff ISNT ONE OF THEM. why do i bother to educate you people. yes i have done it before, but not for some simplistic, nerdy, "ev" purposes. its because i thought my hand might be good and because i had to make a statement. i make some very weird plays my first night in a new home game. this is not the case mentioned. in the case mentioned MY PLAY OF CALLING AND CHECK RAISING IS BEST. this may be hard to imagine because it is not math oriented but put yourself in the position of the original raiser you make it $30 to go with AK, AQs, 10's-AA. What would you like a guy with kings to do behind you in all these cases RAISE ALL IN. with your AA you break him with everything else you get away cheap. a crafty player who will call behind you and trap is much more dangerous. lesson over.

[Moonsugar]

that sums it up right there

[crockpot]

here is how i view this situation, holding almost any hand that does not contain an ace:

- my opponent will fold any hand but aces here, according to you.
- if he calls with aces, i have a 20% chance of outdrawing him anyway.

so i'm risking $150 to win about $40 in the pot now. my opponent folds 44 of the 50 hands in your example immediately, and with the other 6 he calls and i will lose about $90 on average. if you are not willing to take a 12 percent risk of losing $90 in EV to win $40 immediately the other 88 percent of the time, then you are winning a lot less than you could be.

if you want to argue this point with me further, go right ahead. perhaps if you won't make this play it is because you expect people to call with hands other than aces, but this contradicts the logic of your post about the KK hand.

[NLfool]

I don't disagree with you but this is online. I'm not going to get into the rigged etc argument I just know what I see and have in my stats and that is if I raise large with KK and a sensible player goes over the top I'm staring at AA a fair amount of time. Well I don't want to reraise another $30 to find out where I stand because I'm committed then. Live play and online play are vastly different in my opinion. I've run into this type of situation many times and call the flop bet and betting the flop 1/3 of the pot will give you all the info you need. Like I said if he overbets preflop he's gonna overbet the flop also. all situational, depends on player, flop, how you play post flop etc. It's only $150 anyways it's not like it's for tens of thousands of dollars. Going all in preflop and not thinking about it further isn't a mistake but playing ONLINE I know there is a better approach with KK. Trust me I've pushed allin many times when I first started online only to see the bullets.

[limon]

i've never played on line. i've never played to win 88% of a $40 pot with kings. i plot to break players in these situations. i guess im just old fashioned. players who will put $30 into a $6 pot (or $3000 into a $600) are begging to get broke. If I go all in before the flop i'm gonna (generally) win a small pot or lose a big one. if i call and check raise i'm gonna win a big pot or lose a big pot. i've given myself a chance to break my opponent, he's gained nothing. one of the strengths of a "live" poker players is informed decisions. pushing all in pre flop is the play of a scared computer geek.

[crockpot]

i don't believe any of us are talking about having KK in the hole when we discuss making this play as a bluff. maybe you misunderstood that. if so we have nothing to argue about. i don't consider this all in with KK a bluff, because i know tons of players online that will call with less than kings in this situation. (especially on party) the only question is whether he would have made it $30 without aces to begin with.