How many SNG's did you play to get +ROI

[ QUOTE ]
Playing your first 500 SNGs at the 55s and 109s is probably one of the worst ideas I ever heard of. (unless I misread your post). Even if you have extensive poker background at limit or NL ring, you should never jump to its "equivalent" in another area of poker. i.e. playing 109 SNGs and then switching to 5-10 LHE without any limit ring background.

If you're having problems, this is the first place to look. Bubble play is where most of the cash in SNGs is made. Learning it at the 109s isnt worth the money invested when you could learn it much cheaper below.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post.

Also, buy SnGPT if you haven't and quiz yourself on push/fold or call/fold situations for a while.

[roundest]

[ QUOTE ]
How about trying "different" instead of "silly".

If you wanted to start a small business, would you open up a lemonade stand and wait until you amassed $500 in profits before you "moved up" to a hog-dog stand etc. until you worked your way up to a car dealership?

If you wanted to learn tennis, would you start by "mastering" playing other nonplayers, or would you hire a tennis pro? Either way you get better, but one way is more expensive and faster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hiring a tennis coach is one thing. Paying money out of your own pocket for the privilege of playing on the tour starting next week in an attempt to accelerate your progress is another.

Q: "...how long did it take you to get positive ROI"
A: 1 game. (I had 5 firsts in my first 5 online Sit and Goes.)

Q: "...what was the most significant thing you did to increase...
A: I learned to disregard my first 5 online games...and...I learned that I needed to play tighter online than I was used to doing in live games.

Q: "Did you start cold or have significant poker background."
A: I had significant Poker background.

Q: "Can I assume an accelarated learning curve?"
A: Not necessarily true, but it might be true.

Q: "I already know my weakness and it has been the hardest hurdle to climb and thats the bubble (what a surprise). I also assume this was the major hurdle for most others as well."
A: My major hurdle is concentrating solely on poker while playing online. At times I also have to remind myself that there is such a thing as playing TOO tight, even online.

As an aside, I believe there is also such a thing as playing too loose in the bubble...and I also believe this will become more and more important as online players continue to become more and more knowledgeable. (I doubt if I will get much agreement here to that statement in the near future...but I strongly suspect we are quickly approaching the point where this thought is worth more than a casual dismissal.) I have already seen the benefits of trapping overaggressive "in the know" pushing bubble players. (Sometimes the rope-a-dope works in poker too!)

Have a great day!

[reecelights]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. If your net worth is in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, and you are serious about becoming a solid SNGer, AND you don't mind "paying" a few grand to shave some time off the learning cycle, jumping in at mid or higher limits can prove fruitful.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't seem correct. You don't learn to drive an Indy racecar at 220MPH by jumping itno an Indy racecar and flooring it with no experience or coaching. Bankroll should not be the deciding factor.

And, before you can be an Abstract Artist, you have to study traditional art so you know from what you are abstracting.

There's a reason some of the top cash games specialists like playing against Larry Flynt.

[1C5]

1.

Won my first one ever played.

[ QUOTE ]
How about trying "different" instead of "silly".

If you wanted to start a small business, would you open up a lemonade stand and wait until you amassed $500 in profits before you "moved up" to a hog-dog stand etc. until you worked your way up to a car dealership?

If you wanted to learn tennis, would you start by "mastering" playing other nonplayers, or would you hire a tennis pro? Either way you get better, but one way is more expensive and faster.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is there is something to learn from playing the 11's and 22's and that it is better to start from these and work up. You wouldn't start a 5 year old off in middle school because he seems smart and there is no reason to think that someone can just learn poker that quickly either.

Here is a better analogy. We have a man who wants to become the next heavyweight champion of the world. He's a big guy, tough and has held his own in a few bar room brawls. Would we rather he learns how to box and polish his skills off by beating up lesser opponents, or would we rather hope he figures it out quickly by fighting more experience fighters. There is no need to rush a fighter or a poker player to play above their level.

Conclusion: there is a very quick learning curve for poker, but everyone must go through it. Sure someone could become great by starting at the 55's but it would be much more frustrating and tough for that person and in my opinion would take a lot longer to do.

I guess it all depends on how much money vs. free time you have.

I certainly don't consider $55s as the equivalent of world tour tennis or the Indy 500. WSOP or 4-figure buyin MTTs would be a closer equivalent.

Everybody's different. Some people make $80k/yr and consider themselves rich. Others made millions in Silicon Valley and feel that they have fallen behind.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
How about trying "different" instead of "silly".

If you wanted to start a small business, would you open up a lemonade stand and wait until you amassed $500 in profits before you "moved up" to a hog-dog stand etc. until you worked your way up to a car dealership?

If you wanted to learn tennis, would you start by "mastering" playing other nonplayers, or would you hire a tennis pro? Either way you get better, but one way is more expensive and faster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being kind using "silly". "Different" would've sounded silly. If I had to play devil's advocate to my post then your response is fine. However, it doesnt apply to 99% of us. The people who are worth millions are never going to be very interested in becoming good poker players for money making purposes. Millionaires don't comprise a large enough segment of the readers here to warrant catering posts to them.

For example, after every post we could add an addendum for the filthy rich: "Of course, if you're a millionaire, you could call this flop getting 1.5-1 because even if you dont hit your OESD it doesnt matter because Microsoft was up 4 points this week" etc...

Creative counter argument, but "kind of silly".

[durron597]

I started out +ROI and never looked back. There have been downswings but I've never been out of pocket.

Thanks all. I think that answered my question somewhat. As far as $$$ a lucky jackpot and a couple of significant MTT's bankrolled me for the SNG's. I already have the 500 SNG's (37%ITM -9% ROI) under my belt but wondered about jumping down. My biggest prob is playing 22's even at 20% ROI still only yields abt 40.00 a night. I guess that is much better than losing 50.00?? Also I do not like the 800 chip play? As I said earlier my preflop game is solid (not stellar). My post flop is as well due to extensive limit play etc. Both have room for improvement but my significant ROI growth would be most immediately assisted by bubble play. I think I will need to backward adjust for the 800 chip play. This seems to be more significant than some may realize for the particular style played in 55's and definitely in the 109's. At this point can I really improve bubble at these lower tables? Even at 55's I see much of the bubble play as a mere coinflips. Yes there is strategy used by solid bubble players but with the few tourney's I play a night I don't get to see a lot of them. I do occassionally spot what I call good bubble play at 55's and a lot more at 109's but I would think the lower limit bubble play is basically lotto and very little strategy. Yes maybe I would become instantly positive but I guess at this point (+500 SNG's at 55's, 109's) is lower limit SNG play simply pulling the band aide off slowly or could it really provide significant help?