Going to war w/ a piece of cheese - Page 2

Tommy Angelo · #11 07-09-2003, 07:23 PM

Dear bad beetz and haakee and U - "I might flop quads or something" - lysses and whoever else doesn't like the preflop call,

Are you really saying that you can or would or would want to sit in that $15-30 game at AJ's, and be on the button, and have everyone on board for a bet, and muck A-6? I don't mean think about mucking it, or theorize about mucking it. I mean, would you in real life throw that hand away time after time after time in that situation?

Don't presume that I think folding is the wrong play. I have no idea. I just know I don't often have whatever it takes to do it, and I'll be most happy for you if you do.

Tommy

Lee Jones · #12 07-09-2003, 07:31 PM

Well, one of 'em can have the nut diamond draw and aces. If he has Ad-Td, well, you lose. But let's give one of 'em top pair and the flush draw. But what's the other guy got?

If it were me, and they'd both called that third bet on the turn, a word would be forming in my mind, kind of like those weird pixelated images that Ticketmaster puts up to prevent bots from driving their ticket-acquisition website. And then I'd start to realize that image said, "set."

At which point I'd probably check the river.

Regards, Lee

bernie · #13 07-09-2003, 08:05 PM

preflop...im with the group that would fold this. not sure if it's right, but i hate A6o multiway. i always seem to be on the recieving end of someone playing a crap hand like A8o and outkicking me [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

once you hit it....

the turn id 3 bet as you did. if anything to see how they react. if someone 4 bets, it may be crying call time. if they just call, it opens the betting the river when checked to option.

it's a little tougher since both players are tricky and aggressive, but usually these types of players have a spot in a betting round where they slow down with certain hands. you didnt say they were maniacal.

i wouldnt be looking at them having a str8. but someone could have a small set. especially if they 4 bet you on the turn.

so far i like it though....

b

haakee · #14 07-09-2003, 08:20 PM

First of all, A6o is a veritable monster against some of the friggin' cheese YOU limp with.

And some of the hands I 3-bet with. I 3-bet somebody in the Garden City 20-40 yesterday with A5o. It was the best hand (overaggressive raiser had K-something). The next two hands I folded A5o and A6o for a single bet preflop. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Dynasty · #15 07-09-2003, 08:36 PM

UTG+1's play of this hand looks like a flopped set. If an unknown player played like this, I would definitely slow down against him.

bernie · #16 07-09-2003, 09:04 PM

i agree. it looks like he may have wanted to wait for the turn, but once the raise came, he abandoned that idea. but the 'tricky' tag can skew that a little.

b

haakee · #17 07-09-2003, 09:08 PM

In practice I will fold this every time. I just flash back to all the times I've limped with crap on the button after several callers only to have the big blind jack it up with suited connectors or pocket 6s just because everybody is in.

Ulysses · #18 07-09-2003, 09:15 PM

UTG called my bet on the river. He had A5. UTG+1 flashed his hand to a neighbor and commented about the turn costing him money when he picked up an open-ended straight draw to go with his Ace. So, most likely A7 for him (maybe A3).

As for the hand, the obvious question on both the flop and turn is "Does one of these guys have a set?"

With most other players, I would have slowed down, thinking a set was highly likely. But both of these guys are tricky. On the flop, I know UTG will by default put me on a flush draw free card play and re-raise w/ a very wide range of hands. Knowing that, UTG+1 will also 4-bet w/ a very wide range of hands. UTG+1 also knows it would be a real coup for him if he could get me to lay down something like A9 to his 4-bet and UTG is on a draw. So, all of this action could easily be coming from a very wide range of hands.

Two other factors make it unlikely UTG+1 has a set. He would very likely raise w/ any pair after UTG limps here. Also, he would usually call the flop 3-bet and hope I re-raise rather than 4-bet and give me a chance to release a second-best hand early. So, on the flop, I was more concerned about UTG having a set, since of the two he's the one who more often limps w/ pocket pairs.

As soon as UTG bets the turn, I was sure he didn't have a set. I wasn't sure what he had (I thought A4 or A5), but I was pretty sure he didn't have a set. If he did, I'd expect him to either cap the flop or go for a turn check-raise. Just calling the 4-bet and betting out on the turn seemed inconsistent w/ a set.

Which brings us to UTG+1 on the turn. Raise? I have to consider hands like 7d8d (or even 2d3d) at this point and reconsider his having a set. So, there's definitely a chance I'm behind here. But, I know he's aggressive enough to also raise w/ a lot of hands worse than mine. And the raise didn't feel like a big hand raising. So I 3-bet.

With these guys, I know I'm getting re-raised on the turn by any set or straight, so I had an easy bet on the river. One of them might have hit his Ten, but after the turn 3-bet they're going to put me on a set, so I don't think I'd even get raised by these aggressive guys w/ top two.

Ulysses · #19 07-09-2003, 09:17 PM

I think the key to the hand was the action on the flop.

Me too. That combined with UTG leading out on the turn is what convinced me neither of them had a set.

Ulysses · #20 07-09-2003, 09:20 PM

I didn't pick up that these guys were type to bet/cold-call *inappropriately* with gutshots on the flops
Diamond draw w/ gutshot backup is the hand to worry about. There wouldn't have been that kind of heat w/ just a gutshot.

If one of these guys has a set, sh!t happens.
I explain in the results why I didn't think I was up against a set. Against average or unknown opponents, I'd expect to see a set a lot of the time after that flop action.