Straight but the flush draw gets there... - Page 2

fathertime · #11 11-22-2005, 05:13 PM

I know it is a big overbet but I get called on the turn by draws frequently enough that I wonder whether this is a good spot to push.

You may lose some value against worse hands that will make a crying call but I think you gain against his hand range:

1. If you bet river and he pushes, there is a very good chance he has the flush. I hate not getting to showdown here and will call against most players.
2. If you bet he will probably fold all hands except for a smaller straight and a flush.

And so a bet here folds a worse hand and allows a better hand to push.

But if you check

1. he may bet a worse hand to represent the board (a lot of players will bet when checked to)
2. he may bet two pair, either because he thinks it best or because he thinks you may fold to the flush scare card
3. he will bet a straight
4. he will bet a flush

And so checking allows you a chance of making more money against his hand range.

4_2_it · #12 11-22-2005, 05:18 PM

You make some excellent points, but very few players are capable of betting that river with anything worse than a 9 high straight. However, I think players with sets and 2 pr will call a value bet here which is where you make your money.

If you get pushed I think you still have to make a crying call unless you know that villain is a bona fide chase no matter the cost player. Most chasers fold to a pot sized turn bet if they havn't caught a piece of the flop.

Riverman · #13 11-22-2005, 05:28 PM

In my experience most players would not play a flush draw like your opponent given the size of both your flop bet (small) and turn bet (big). I would bet about 100 and probably fold to a push.

Hattifnatt · #14 11-22-2005, 05:31 PM

I would buy your reasoning if it wasnt a fourcardstraight on the board that makes 90% of the players just check behind with sets and 2 pairs in this spot hoping to take it down.

But I would probably blockbet even if it wasnt a fourcardstraight out there...

4_2_it · #15 11-22-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience most players would not play a flush draw like your opponent given the size of both your flop bet (small) and turn bet (big). I would bet about 100 and probably fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you fold to a push? You are getting better than 4 to 1 at that point. If you bet $100 you are committing your stack.

MuckerFish · #16 11-22-2005, 07:21 PM

Thanks for the input guys!
For the results, I open pushed the river, and villian folded. In hindsight, I think it was a mistake. My concern was not having to make a tough decision by calling a river bet, and I hoped I could maybe push him off a non-nut flush. But the reality of the issue is at these stakes and with the remaining stacks what they were (not so deep), I don't think anyone who chased that far is folding any flush anyway. By pushing, I made my decision a little psychologically easier on myself, but probably lost a lot of value from 2pair/set type of hands that would have called an 80-100 dollar bet. If I bet like that and he came over the top, a crying call would have been in order. Also, the river was most likely a WA/WB scenario, and if he called the push, I suspect most of the time I'd be toast, thereby costing myself the most when losing, and winning the least when ahead.

If I could only remeber these things in the heat of battle...

Thanks-

fathertime · #17 11-22-2005, 08:14 PM

And these hands call a blocking bet? Maybe but I still think you win more by check calling.

Hattifnatt · #18 11-23-2005, 06:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And these hands call a blocking bet? Maybe but I still think you win more by check calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
By blocking bet:

They MIGHT call (you win 0 or 80).

But by checking:

They will surely check (you win 0).

saxhoe · #19 11-23-2005, 07:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And these hands call a blocking bet? Maybe but I still think you win more by check calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
By blocking bet:

They MIGHT call (you win 0 or 80).

But by checking:

They will surely check (you win 0).

[/ QUOTE ]
What if he had been betting less on the turn, and there was no four card straight?

Hattifnatt · #20 11-23-2005, 07:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And these hands call a blocking bet? Maybe but I still think you win more by check calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
By blocking bet:

They MIGHT call (you win 0 or 80).

But by checking:

They will surely check (you win 0).

[/ QUOTE ]
What if he had been betting less on the turn, and there was no four card straight?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then consider a check/call to induce a bluff (representing the flush) or a bet from a worse hand than heros might be a good idea imo.

On the other hand a much smaller bet on the turn would had given villian the correct odds to a chase the flush so then a check/fold might be in order as well.