A River Dilemma

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You call a raise here? I guess I was just thinking that this guy's too passive to be bluffing a board this scary.

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oh nm. thought only the flush came in, missed the straight.

yeah, b/f.

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Okay, see, this is what I was wondering about. I think one of the biggest problems I have in my river play is that I can't bring myself to bet/fold. I see people suggesting bet/fold lines a lot, especially in HUSH, and I always wonder if it's something I should be adding to my game. But I always end up thinking, check/calling will allow me to make it to showdown for the same one bet. As a consequence, I know I miss a lot of value bets on the river.

I'm seeing some disagreement about whether folding to a raise would be correct right on the river here, and I don't know either. But I am wondering if anyone could lay out some general guidelines for when they bet/fold the river. Here is what I am thinking personally:

1. The pot should be relatively small.
2. There shouldn't be many (or any) hands that someone could raise with that you beat.
3. You should have a read that your opponents are not very aggressive/prone to bluffing.

To me this hand fails the test because of #2 - like Redd said someone could raise two pair and not realize they were bluffing.

Does anyone have any other guidelines or examples of when bet/folding the river is appropriate?

[aargh57]

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You call a raise here? I guess I was just thinking that this guy's too passive to be bluffing a board this scary.

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oh nm. thought only the flush came in, missed the straight.

yeah, b/f.

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Okay, see, this is what I was wondering about. I think one of the biggest problems I have in my river play is that I can't bring myself to bet/fold. I see people suggesting bet/fold lines a lot, especially in HUSH, and I always wonder if it's something I should be adding to my game. But I always end up thinking, check/calling will allow me to make it to showdown for the same one bet. As a consequence, I know I miss a lot of value bets on the river.

I'm seeing some disagreement about whether folding to a raise would be correct right on the river here, and I don't know either. But I am wondering if anyone could lay out some general guidelines for when they bet/fold the river. Here is what I am thinking personally:

1. The pot should be relatively small.
2. There shouldn't be many (or any) hands that someone could raise with that you beat.
3. You should have a read that your opponents are not very aggressive/prone to bluffing.

To me this hand fails the test because of #2 - like Redd said someone could raise two pair and not realize they were bluffing.

Does anyone have any other guidelines or examples of when bet/folding the river is appropriate?

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Actually I think those are pretty good guidelines. Basically you're thinking, do the odds justify my call here. I misread this hand a little and thought that only SB was still in the hand. In this case I think it would depend on where the raise came from and if you had to overcall. If you get raised by CO then SB calls the raise I can't see how you're ahead. However, if CO folds and SB raises he could have 2 pair and the size of the pot would justify calling. I just always try to think how many times I'd have to be right in relation to the pot based on what I know about the player. If I know very little about him or he's aggressive I tend to call more than if he's a passive player.

I remember a situation in B&M that really drove home not folding to one bet in big pots (I don't remember the hand exactly). I was in LP with JTs and flopped the straight. It was bet into me by a pretty passive apponent and I raised got two callers including the bettor. Turn made a 3 flush (not my suit) and I again bet and got same 2 callers. River came another flush card, 1st player checked (or bet, can't remember) and passive player bet (or raised). This was a large pot and I convinced myself he must've had the flush so I folded and watched him turn over 2 pair. This may be a similar hand.

Grunch -

Check. You will not beat many of the possible hands he holds and I wouldn't want to pay 2 BBs to see the show down.

Check the river. The CO's got position on you, and you have no read on this player. This isn't a fold, but is a situation where I'd want to see the flop as cheaply as possible.

On the issue of raising the flop, you really should have. The CO may have still have CC'd, but at least you would have forced him to make a mistake. And since the turn was a blank, there would have been additional pressure to fold.

Note that I don't put the SB on any threating hand. A player as loose and passive as his stats wouldn't be betting a FD on the flop.