Question on cold calling preflop - Page 2

rkiray · #11 06-26-2003, 08:14 PM

Actually about the only time I cold call is with medium pairs and suited connectors. Big pairs I reraise with. AK and AQs I reraise with. But medium pairs and most suited connetors I only cold call if I'm pretty sure at least three other people will be in the pot. See my post "What I'm doing differently" in another thread for details. You give examples of several hands that are worth cold calling with as long as you have 3 other people with you.

bernie · #12 06-26-2003, 08:15 PM

you dont need to have the full 8-1 preflop. remember implied odds? this is why you can call with less odds preflop because youll make up for it by being paid off postflop.

b

rkiray · #13 06-26-2003, 08:32 PM

Sorry AA,

I liked some of your post in the past, but I have major disagreements with this one. KJo, and QJo are terrible hands to play in a raised multiway pot. These hands can easily trap you and you are the one giving the implied odds in these situations. The suited hands are much better in this situation.

TT I would fold if there arn't enough people in the pot, but no way do I reraise. (JJ is an automatic reraise against everyone except complete rocks, weird how little a difference it takes). AQs is probably worth a reraise, I would fold AQo especially if lots of people are in, and you should not even be thinking of calling with AJo. KQs is a definite call if enough people are in. Only reraise if the original reraiser is a very loose raiser.

If you have a four flush you don't need anywhere near 8:1. pot odds are 4:1, and if you don't fear a raise behind you on the flop implied odds mean basicaly always call. If it's multi-way (4 or more players) raise.

Hope I'm not being too tough here.

rkiray · #14 06-26-2003, 08:43 PM

Uh-oh,

I just noticed I said some of the same things earlier in this thread. I'm not trying to spam. It was a couple of day ago, I had forgot about it. Errors happen. I apoligize again.

anatta · #15 06-26-2003, 08:58 PM

Sklansky: "Any hand that can call a raise cold is strong enough to raise with"

You: "Now, as i understand it, since my hand was worth a raise IF NO ONE HAD RAISED, then i should go ahead and cold-call (this is based on sklanky's statement)."

All apples are red, but all red things aren't apples.

Sklanksy is saying any hand which is correct to play against a raise is also correct to open-raise or raise after some limpers. But the converse is not true. All hands that are correct to open-raise are not correct to cold call a raise.

Like all things red, the universe of open-raising hands is much larger than the number of hands that are correct to cold-call a raise (apples). While all hands that are correct to cold-call a raise belong to the group of open-raising hands, many other hands do to. For example, on the button, if all fold to me, I sometimes like to raise any two cards higher than 8. But I would be crazy to call a raise cold with my Q8o.

The value of a hand is relative. A raise in front of you reduces the value of your hand, often changing what would have been a raise for you, into a fold.

(okay, some apples are green or whatever..)

Clarkmeister · #16 06-27-2003, 02:21 AM

Coldcalling raises with medium and small suited connectors is the fast track to the poorhouse. Yes, even with 3 others in the pot.

Michael Davis · #17 06-27-2003, 03:42 AM

"TT I would fold if there arn't enough people in the pot, but no way do I reraise. (JJ is an automatic reraise against everyone except complete rocks, weird how little a difference it takes). AQs is probably worth a reraise, I would fold AQo especially if lots of people are in, and you should not even be thinking of calling with AJo. KQs is a definite call if enough people are in. Only reraise if the original reraiser is a very loose raiser."

If you acknowledge the difference is little, it does not make sense that one hand is worth a 3-bet while the other is a fold.

-Mike

ArchAngel71857 · #18 06-27-2003, 10:28 AM

To: rkiray

Sorry, I did not make myself clear.

KJo, QJo I have no problem playing. In an unraised pot, its fine, but when someone raises, i have no problem throwing it away, i was trying to narrow the hands down to those that are better than these hands but worse than AA, KK which is an automatic re-raise. The marginal hands that are strong, but are suddenly weakned by a raise. If UTG open raises, and everyone cold-calls, i am still throwing away unsuited high connecters, unless maybe AK.

I am glad you brought up JJ. At times I like it like KK, QQ. At other times i like it like TT. These are the hands I am talking about, with AA, KK, QQ reraise is automatic, with TT folding is usually a good play. So what about the hand in the middle. Cold-calling?

Thanks for your advice on the AQs, the problem with AQo is that in the limits I play, I think to throw this hand away is often to throw away a hand that could be second best, but actually will more often become second best, so I should probably do it anyway, its just frusturating to repeatedly see an open-raise, i throw away AQo, and the open raiser had like A6o, or K9s, or some crap.

SO you would cold call with KQs if enough people get there.

I don't have the four-flush yet, this was in response to someone's post about whether to cold-call with big suited, KQs, QJs, KJs? they said you hit the four-flush 11% (8:1) of the time. So i would need a large pot preflop before it gets to me to justify my cold-call.

You weren't being tough at all, this post has been very informative in clearing up leaks in my game.

-AA

ArchAngel71857 · #19 06-27-2003, 10:31 AM

Sklanksy is saying any hand which is correct to play against a raise is also correct to open-raise or raise after some limpers. But the converse is not true. All hands that are correct to open-raise are not correct to cold call a raise.

Thank you, this is the answer I was looking for.

-AA

rkiray · #20 06-27-2003, 10:59 AM

I didn't make myself completely clear either. The advice before was for use against typical players. I would play less against rocks (throw away JJ, maybe even QQ if I believe it's a total rock who only raises with AA or KK, and there are a couple of players like this at Paradise). Against a very agressive raiser (A6o, K9o), I play more of those hands and then I reraise with hands like AQo, especially if I believe I can get heads up with the loose raiser. But I don't do this until I've seen 3 or 4 loose raises from a player in a fairly short time (on-line in an hour or two). This is what makes poker tough. An answer depends on many things.