A triplet of Ax hands - Page 2

jgorham · #1 11-14-2005, 04:42 AM

In hand 1, I think you need to check that turn. The button here is not really that much of a concern (given the read), and can almost certainly be counted on to bet. As for SB, I feel like his most likely hand is a flush draw, but it is possible he also has a monster. If you check the turn, button bets, and SB checkraises again, then you can fold. But if button bets and SB calls, you have a nice checkraise there. Vs. if you just bet out you risk the button either calling or folding and the SB seeing the river for 1 BB rather than 2.

Now of course this all assumes button is going to bet that turn with a relatively high frequency, but from your read it seems that is the case.

Also, I 3bet preflop in both hand 1 and 2, for solid equity edges.

Hand 2 is fine, but it would be a lot different (and better) if you just would have built a ginormous pot preflop.

Hand 3 I fold the river. If it were HU then it is a call, but CO will probably overcall there with any pocket pair, a 3 or a 4.

meep_42 · #2 11-14-2005, 04:55 AM

hand 1 - You'll have to qualify 'reckless bluffer' a bit more before I think you're ahead of both SB and Button. When SB checks, it seems he either has a monster and wants to check-raise again, or that he was pumping his draw/draws (KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT of diamonds?) If he's as reckless as I'd imagine he'd have to be for you to bet here, are you calling the turn and betting a non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river?

Isn't hand 2 straight out of SSH? (Only I beleive Hero has position in Ed's example) Your backdoors and overcards give you enough to continue in the hand and your check-3bet might slow down your oppoents, get a better hand to fold, and clean up outs. I'd like to hear your reasoning for not 3-betting pre-flop, especially since it will force most of the table to call 2-cold. I suppose that most will call anyway, seeing all that money in the pot, so if your expressed intention was to check-raise most flops, then I can understand it.

For hand 3, given that he's a relentless bluffer, wouldn't a river raise be better to get out any random pocket pairs that stuck around or a better A-high?

-d

private joker · #3 11-14-2005, 04:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Eight limpers to the Button who raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

gg

SippinSoma · #4 11-14-2005, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Eight limpers to the Button who raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

gg

[/ QUOTE ]

If you 3-bet, are you looking for value or fold equity? 50/50 on both? 70/30? 10/90? Do you really like investing more bets with AKo OOP against a field of 10? Or did you just mean gg no re as in you liked calling here?

newhizzle · #5 11-14-2005, 08:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Eight limpers to the Button who raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

gg

[/ QUOTE ]

If you 3-bet, are you looking for value or fold equity? 50/50 on both? 70/30? 10/90? Do you really like investing more bets with AKo OOP against a field of 10? Or did you just mean gg no re as in you liked calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he said "gg" because there were 8 limpers and it was a good game, but i might be wrong

SippinSoma · #6 11-14-2005, 09:25 AM

You may be right, but I posed the question anyway because it was asked earlier.

private joker · #7 11-14-2005, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

i think he said "gg" because there were 8 limpers and it was a good game, but i might be wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

It was an inside joke/reference to this post, from a thread where the idea of not raising AKo PF from the BB against a family pot of limpers was laughed out of the building.

toss · #8 11-14-2005, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i think he said "gg" because there were 8 limpers and it was a good game, but i might be wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

It was an inside joke/reference to this post, from a thread where the idea of not raising AKo PF from the BB against a family pot of limpers was laughed out of the building.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in this hand Jason is gonna argue that he called PF so he can knock people out postflop on a reasonable flop.

jason_t · #9 11-14-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i think he said "gg" because there were 8 limpers and it was a good game, but i might be wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

It was an inside joke/reference to this post, from a thread where the idea of not raising AKo PF from the BB against a family pot of limpers was laughed out of the building.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a huge difference between these two situations. In my situation there is an aggressive Button who I can exploit postflop to increase my chances of winning the pot. If that chance is p and p is large enough so that

.18 * (expected final pot size after 3-betting preflop) < p * (expected final pot size after not 3-betting preflop)

then my idea is a good one. The .18 comes from AK's hot/cold equity against eight random hands. Of course, it's very difficult to estimate p but I do know that with this Button I will be able to check/raise against his likely inferior hand a lot. Every limper that I can clear with this check/raise increases p.

This is really no different than passing up a flop equity edge to exploit one on the turn.

Now, there's a little bit more going on. I'm OOP. That hurts my equity a little. My hand is offsuit; big offsuit broadway cards do not like big multiway pots. Moreover, we have six limpers, a Button raise and an SB cold call. On average I would say the chances that no pair and no other Ax or Kx hands are out there is low. This does cut into my average equity.

Again, I'm not claiming to have this figured out. I'm just telling you what my idea was at the table in the two seconds I had to make my decision and I'm hoping to hear some analysis.

newhizzle · #10 11-14-2005, 06:00 AM

hand 1: fold to the flop cap, check/fold turn unless its somehow heads up between you and button when the action gets to you, also i think check/calling would have been your best line on the flop

hand 2: 3-bet preflop, the pots already monsterous as it is, you might as well make it bigger with a good hand, i dont think calling is going to give you any real postflop advantages here

as for the flop, i think its close between calling and folding when its 2 bets back to you, 3-betting is horrible in my oppinion, there is almost no way that you could have the best hand right now, and if you hit a pair it probably wont hold up, you arent really going to knock anyone out that matters, you might as well let them stay in to pay you off on your long-shot back-door flush

hand 3: fold the flop, on the river, i think raising is better than calling