Relying too much on PT reads?

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I am relatively new here as well, and have had a similar experience with PT. I am finding it very useful to help me begin to break my own game apart, but often leads me to trouble when I use it with HUD. Somethings are pretty clear w/ PT .. .respect a raise from a very tight person that rarely raises ... don't semi-bluff someone that has seen 80% of showdowns, etc. But the subtleties are still above my own abilities.

I find I generally do best when I 3-4 table, and thus rely more on my general instincts (and what I have read), rather than trying to play the players too much. That will come for me in time I am sure, and PT will help, but as someone relatively new to the game, too much information can be dangerous.

just my 2c

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Maybe I'm all alone here ... but IMO, NOT using cumulative stats you've seen over the last 100+ hands on a player is just crazy. If you have good "reads" on 30-40 simultaneous players to the point where the statistical evaluation of their play is not useful you must have a damn good memory over time and I'd like to learn how you do it.

Obviously an EP limp from an 70/2/.5 player is WAAAY different than the same limp from a 12/2/3 player and ignoring these glaring differences will have long-term effects on bankroll ...

Yes that's a good way of putting the question: Where do you draw the line?

If someone is 100/100 the odds that your hand is ahead of his is so great then I think it makes sense to cold call or raise him. Also if someone is 100/100 they're going to showdown with you no matter what so you're always gauranteed maximum when you win and loose minimum when you don't hit the flop since you'll fold and he won't when he doesn't. They're making poor preflop and poor postflop play. But if someone is 40/10 they're at least folding some of the time.

So my guess on where the line would be for calling is: If he's raising with cards you call with measureably more than 50% of the time you can play him using his raise as an advantage to knock out opponents when you have hands that do well against one or two opponents.

[Buckmulligan]

PT preflop reads are ridiculously helpful, especially the preflop raise %. That gives you a breadth of information. When bet into or raised on a flop that you have a piece of, you can eliminate holdings that beat you based on your knowledge of villain. While simple board reading clues you into what hands beat you, preflop raise % indicates whether or not the villain has those hands.

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I am relatively new here as well, and have had a similar experience with PT. I am finding it very useful to help me begin to break my own game apart, but often leads me to trouble when I use it with HUD. Somethings are pretty clear w/ PT .. .respect a raise from a very tight person that rarely raises ... don't semi-bluff someone that has seen 80% of showdowns, etc. But the subtleties are still above my own abilities.

I find I generally do best when I 3-4 table, and thus rely more on my general instincts (and what I have read), rather than trying to play the players too much. That will come for me in time I am sure, and PT will help, but as someone relatively new to the game, too much information can be dangerous.

just my 2c

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Maybe I'm all alone here ... but IMO, NOT using cumulative stats you've seen over the last 100+ hands on a player is just crazy. If you have good "reads" on 30-40 simultaneous players to the point where the statistical evaluation of their play is not useful you must have a damn good memory over time and I'd like to learn how you do it.

Obviously an EP limp from an 70/2/.5 player is WAAAY different than the same limp from a 12/2/3 player and ignoring these glaring differences will have long-term effects on bankroll ...

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Like I said ... some of the obvious things from PT like those you list above do help, it the more subtle things that are tough. And yes, my memory is fairly strong .. .not the best by any strech, but strong.

As to the idea of not using PT being crazy ... this would seem to imply that we are unable to make any money from sites that are not PT compatible. This is, of course, crazy. Bad players stand out very clearly. PT isn't needed to clean them out. What I find is that using PT effictively to take the $ from the more middle/road players is just beyond my current skill levels ... i am sure I will eventually get there, and PT will help ... I just am not there yet.

What I am trying to say is that using PT well is not as easy as just using PT. It is one, of many, skills needed to do well at this game, and for me at least ... i am unable to learn them all at once.

I suppose my limited ability to parralel learn is the cost of a decent memory.

[VBCurtis]

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As to the idea of not using PT being crazy ... this would seem to imply that we are unable to make any money from sites that are not PT compatible. This is, of course, crazy. Bad players stand out very clearly.

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It does not imply that we are unable to make money at those sites, but it does imply that our expected earn is lower than with PT. Even if one only uses PT/HUDs for preflop decisions, folding hands you would usually 3-bet or CC with because stats show the tight guy who raised is a 12/1 instead of a more typical weak-tight 12/6 is a big deal. Stats showing a LAG is an 80/60 instead of a 60/35 is a big deal. These things save bets preflop, on the street many micro players play on autopilot.
These things do not mean we can't make money at poker without PT, but they do add to our earn. I *can* make money without PT, but I make more with it, and I have more confidence in my reads of players-- that I didn't notice the one crazy hand from a tight guy, etc. I've found (only 10K hands played online) that learning to trust the PT stat-reads has helped me to trust my own reads and alter my pf play live, too.
-Curtis

[Felipe]

I like to use Gametime and PT to pick up on tight passive players. They are the ones that I notice the least. Their tightness is obvious, but their AF is something that's hard for me to determine just by watching them. But it is a good excersise to try to read players without the help of PT and gametime.

About the KJo hand, i fold this hand to a raise. It is an easily dominated hand: AK, AJ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT all put you in a touch situation. There's something to be said about -ego- in this thread. We mustn't play as though we are tyring to beat another player - idealy we should play to maximize our expectation. I don't think playing KJo against a wild raiser is sound, or greatly +ev.