Preflop Concept Question

[deception5]

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I raise for value. Also we have position so there is a chance your raise will give us a free card.

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It's not really free if we could just call a flop bet after calling preflop though for the same price.

Man, I'm geeting SK00L3D. NICE, luv it, great to improve knowledge.

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I raise for value. Also we have position so there is a chance your raise will give us a free card.

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It's not really free if we could just call a flop bet after calling preflop though for the same price.

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I don't think that's really the same thing, and I think raising preflop for a free card has some value. Say we limp, and the flop is KQ2 with two the same suit as our ace. It's checked to the guy on our left who bets. We're getting like only 6:1 on our draw. If we had raised preflop we might get a free card in what is a bigger pot with a pretty strong draw, which is actually quite valuable.

The questions are though 1) How often do we get a free card (I don't think often enough in these games) 2) How does the value of a free card (some fraction of a BB) compare to the EV lost by raising instead of calling preflop.

But if I was GUARUNTEED a free card on the flop I think that I would be raising A10o, KQo, AJo in these situations where I normally wouldn't

The edge you have preflop is tiny imo. Just call. With A8 or something I would probably fold.

[bottomset]

preflop is boring and doesn't matter much

[deception5]

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I raise for value. Also we have position so there is a chance your raise will give us a free card.

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It's not really free if we could just call a flop bet after calling preflop though for the same price.

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I don't think that's really the same thing, and I think raising preflop for a free card has some value. Say we limp, and the flop is KQ2 with two the same suit as our ace. It's checked to the guy on our left who bets. We're getting like only 6:1 on our draw. If we had raised preflop we might get a free card in what is a bigger pot with a pretty strong draw, which is actually quite valuable.

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For one thing you could call (or even raise) this in either example, especially at this table getting 6:1.

For another, it's not generally a good idea to build a big pot preflop so you have odds to chase later. If this were the case you could raise with 84o so that when the flop comes J76 you could get a "free card" or call a bet with your gutshot where you would have had to fold the flop unimproved had you not bloated the pot preflop.

If you're raising it's because you have an equity edge preflop and you generally want to do this either because you have a huge edge now (like AA) and would like to get as much money in as possible while you are a huge favorite or because you have a strong drawing hand and would like to get everyone to chase when you hit a strong flop and they are drawing nearly dead. This hand doesn't really fit into either category and the flop is going to make or break your hand.

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The questions are though 1) How often do we get a free card (I don't think often enough in these games) 2) How does the value of a free card (some fraction of a BB) compare to the EV lost by raising instead of calling preflop.

But if I was GUARUNTEED a free card on the flop I think that I would be raising A10o, KQo, AJo in these situations where I normally wouldn't

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A preflop raise is not a bad play here as you do have a small EV advantage (there's certainly no EV lost by raising instead of calling preflop), it's just that there are advantages of waiting until the flop. A preflop raise for a free card is however a bad play.

The free card play is usually done on the flop for a reason. The bet doubles on the turn! It is extremely valuable to not have to put in any bets on the big streets. Not so on the flop.

It is also much more likely that your opponents are going to bet the flop and less so that they will bet the turn. A strong draw is often going to bet the flop for value where that value goes down on the turn. A strong hand in EP is going to bet the flop hoping you'll raise.

Finally, by not raising preflop you can get a good idea of where you stand on the flop. Your hand is disguised and you will be able to take full advantage of your position.

[tiltaholic]

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This table is somewhat loose, 4-5 to the flop is not unusual.

You're dealt ATo, on the button.

An EP player limps, 2 MP players limp, the CO limps.

What do you do (fold, limp, or raise)?
Please explain your reasoning.

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if you're going to talk in vague generalities about the table, then i'm going to say i stick with my trademark

"surfing porn while i 8 table-preflop play guide"

this guide stipulates that i limp ATo after multiple limpers. and that i raise AJo. and fold A9o.

about a year ago i'd have folded ATo in this situation and i thinking folding is better than raising.

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This table is somewhat loose, 4-5 to the flop is not unusual.

You're dealt ATo, on the button.

An EP player limps, 2 MP players limp, the CO limps.

What do you do (fold, limp, or raise)?
Please explain your reasoning.

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if you're going to talk in vague generalities about the table, then i'm going to say i stick with my trademark

"surfing porn while i 8 table-preflop play guide"

this guide stipulates that i limp ATo after multiple limpers. and that i raise AJo. and fold A9o.

about a year ago i'd have folded ATo in this situation and i thinking folding is better than raising.

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I limp AJo and KQo after 4-5 limpers as a general rule. What does everyone else do? What about AQo?

[aces_dad]

Against purely random hands AQo doesn't have much of an edge vs A10o, but I still limp the A10o here and raise AQ.

IMO handling the postflop correctly in these cases is much more important than the limp/raise dynamic with A10o.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,623,814 games 37.085 secs 70,751 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.4766 % 29.39% 01.09% { AcQd }
Hand 2: 17.4014 % 16.39% 01.01% { random }
Hand 3: 17.3937 % 16.38% 01.01% { random }
Hand 4: 17.3366 % 16.32% 01.02% { random }
Hand 5: 17.3918 % 16.38% 01.01% { random }


---

1,901,892 games 23.895 secs 79,593 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 27.5513 % 26.16% 01.39% { AcTd }
Hand 2: 18.1301 % 17.03% 01.10% { random }
Hand 3: 18.1506 % 17.05% 01.10% { random }
Hand 4: 18.0732 % 16.97% 01.10% { random }
Hand 5: 18.0948 % 16.99% 01.10% { random }


---

[bozlax]

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What's your estimate of the preflop equity of ATo?


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Not sure, know its not high. But its a lose table, surely we have an edge over fish playing A9o etc etc ??

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My point is, in order for your raise to be "for value" you need to have a greater % equity than the % money you're putting into the pot. At this point you're pretty sure you've got 4 players that will call your raise, 1 that's likely, and 1 that's possible. If you can't reliably put your equity at 14% (that's if both blinds and all limpers call the raise...20%+ if you lose the blinds) then you can't strictly raise "for value."