Punishing limpers w/ an all-in - Page 2

betgo · #11 11-06-2005, 12:23 AM

This is a terrible hand to try this with. You have a junk hand, and if you get called, you are probably dominated. You need a real hand or at a stealing hand. With AT, I would probably try this, or with any standard raisimg hand. With a pp, broadway cards, or a suited connector, you have a chance if called.

Rizen · #12 11-06-2005, 12:27 AM

I will admit, I bust in these situations a decent amount of the time as well, but quite honestly I don't mind busting here. With ~1500 chips I don't really consider myself in survival mode, and if I want any chance of going deep in this tournament, I want to acumulate chips right now. If we were closer to the bubble that might change things a bit, but according to this poster we're about half way through the field.

We can agree to disagree, but unless I had a substantial read here this is one of the situations where I'm quite willing to take the risk of going broke if I feel I have a good spot to accumulate more chips. I feel this is one of those spots.

-Rizen

#13 11-06-2005, 12:35 AM

You are risking your tournament life on a bad play. First off, A7 is a bad hand. If you wanted to try this, I would have picked an ace with at least a jack kicker and maybe A10s. With two players left to act and three already in the pot, the chances are just too great that someone will call this all-in raise.

Rizen · #14 11-06-2005, 12:45 AM

I guess I'm in the minority on this one... Yes, A7o is a terrible hand, but I think this is one of those rare situations that the stacks are right, the blinds are right, and the current pot size is right to make this move profitable. I don't think you have a stack big enough to hope to pass up a +EV play in the hopes of a greater +EV play later. The only reason to pass on this is if you think it's -EV, and without running the exact #s, I would think you'd have to be ~70% certain you'll get called here in order for this to become -EV.

-Rizen

KneeCo · #15 11-06-2005, 07:25 PM

3$ Stars running now. Slightly different situation from the last one (shorter stack, in the BB).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 (t3165)
CO (t1015)
Button (t1255)
SB (t7020)
Hero (t895)
UTG (t720)
UTG+1 (t1100)
MP1 (t5100)
MP2 (t2705)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t100, 2 folds, MP2 calls t100, 2 folds, Button calls t100, SB completes, Hero raises to t895 (all-in)

2 things that I assume when I make this move:
- IMO my cards don't matter as much as many of you seem to think.
- I may very well get called, but I'm confident I will not get called by more than one player.

#16 11-06-2005, 07:30 PM

too many donkeys out there for me to try this stuff

#17 11-06-2005, 07:35 PM

I don't mind that move, noone shows any real desire, you got fold equity, and if everyone folds, your stack increase by more than 50%, if someone calls you, and you win, you have 2.5x the stack you had before. Only thing you really don't want to run into in that spot is a hand like AQ, AA-QQ are likely not to limp, every other hand you are 70% or better I think, without doing the pokerstove on it.

Rizen · #18 11-06-2005, 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3$ Stars running now. Slightly different situation from the last one (shorter stack, in the BB).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 (t3165)
CO (t1015)
Button (t1255)
SB (t7020)
Hero (t895)
UTG (t720)
UTG+1 (t1100)
MP1 (t5100)
MP2 (t2705)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t100, 2 folds, MP2 calls t100, 2 folds, Button calls t100, SB completes, Hero raises to t895 (all-in)

2 things that I assume when I make this move:
- IMO my cards don't matter as much as many of you seem to think.
- I may very well get called, but I'm confident I will not get called by more than one player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're leaving out one key consideration here thouhg. The UTG player has an M of < 5. This makes this situation different than the other one I think. Unless you have a read that UTG is a VERY bad player, you must be suspicious of his limp with his stack. Given the stack considerations, I really think you're MUCH more likely to get called here than in the previous situation, so I would probably check here and hope I get a favorable flop. I think for this particular move, you must analyze the villian's stacks and try and deduce their liklihood of calling. If you feel you have a 50% chance of getting everyone to fold, and you're M is between 7-12 or so, this is a very +EV move (as I've said earlier).

Enough rambling, I don't really like it in this situation because I would venture a guess that you're about 80% to get called here, absent reads.

-Rizen

#19 11-07-2005, 01:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a terrible hand to try this with. You have a junk hand, and if you get called, you are probably dominated. You need a real hand or at a stealing hand. With AT, I would probably try this, or with any standard raisimg hand. With a pp, broadway cards, or a suited connector, you have a chance if called.

[/ QUOTE ]

centja1 · #20 11-07-2005, 12:09 PM

I used this play a lot in a B&M MTT, but only once I got to be the chip leader at my table did I do it.

In general, I tried to make sure I had a hand that would at least have a fighting shot at winning were I to get called (mostly 66, 77, 88, etc) but did it once with KTs.

The effectiveness of this play comes when you can threaten someone with elimination (or you can at least cripple their stack). it becomes very difficult to call off your entire stack with KJ or AT, although they would call in a second if they saw your hand. I don't think this is necessarily a +EV "survival" play although you get healthy very quickly when it does work.

with your stack and your hand, I would wait to open push and pick up the blinds. The fact that there are multiple BB in the pot when you push is enticing, but those same players will see all that money in there and call hoping for a coinflip with 30-50% of their stack.