1010 in a tough river spot

Checking this river is a horrible play. I would pay this off, you have a decently strong hand and a big pot, I don't really need to think any further.

(PF is horrible but you dont care)

[La Brujita]

FWIW I thought the board had 4567 on it with three spades which is why I check called. With the board as it is I go with a bet-call line.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Every player in this hand is pretty bad. The first two limpers are horrendous,

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, HERO CALLSS?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

this is bad.

if those first players are tight, or play well, AND the button is over aggro and bets any flop when checked to him then you can make an argument for not raising.

but if you opponens play 74o and the like pf then you absolutely HAVE TO RAISE preflop. its just not close.

this is the reason you raise here with no reads also. if you are wrong and your oppoents play well, youv'e cost yourself a little by increasing the pot size for them to call down correctly, but still made money PF so its still close. if you are correct and your opponents suck, you've made a lot of money. so raise as a default, and DEFINATELY raise if the opponents play badly.

on the river, unless this guy is capable of bluff raising a flush card with something like 87 its a clear fold.

he cold called 2 bets on the flop, called the turn, and raised the river.

a payoff is ok if you think he's capable of the above stated scare card bluff. but id lay odds he has the flush here. i dont know if id lay 10:1, so maybe its a call based on my reluctance to lay those odds...you did say he played bad and that increases the probability that he can have a bluff here, but seriously, you c'r the flop and bet the turn, does he really expect you to fold? yea, maybe id lay those odds, in the heat of battle i fold this.

Barron

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[ QUOTE ]
Every player in this hand is pretty bad. The first two limpers are horrendous,

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, HERO CALLSS?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

this is bad.

if those first players are tight, or play well, AND the button is over aggro and bets any flop when checked to him then you can make an argument for not raising.

but if you opponens play 74o and the like pf then you absolutely HAVE TO RAISE preflop. its just not close.

this is the reason you raise here with no reads also. if you are wrong and your oppoents play well, youv'e cost yourself a little by increasing the pot size for them to call down correctly, but still made money PF so its still close. if you are correct and your opponents suck, you've made a lot of money. so raise as a default, and DEFINATELY raise if the opponents play badly.

on the river, unless this guy is capable of bluff raising a flush card with something like 87 its a clear fold.

he cold called 2 bets on the flop, called the turn, and raised the river.

a payoff is ok if you think he's capable of the above stated scare card bluff. but id lay odds he has the flush here. i dont know if id lay 10:1, so maybe its a call based on my reluctance to lay those odds...you did say he played bad and that increases the probability that he can have a bluff here, but seriously, you c'r the flop and bet the turn, does he really expect you to fold? yea, maybe id lay those odds, in the heat of battle i fold this.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already explained why I didn't raise preflop. Please don't make it out like it's a total no-brainer, because it is not. It's a very close play, and I went the way I did because of the opponents I was in against. I wanted to preserve my ability to make them face 2 cold on the flop, and I did that.

As for the river, it's another close decision in retrospect. I called, for what it's worth. I thought I was good about 20% of the time here, so in the heat of battle it wasn't close to me. That's why I posted the hand.

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Checking this river is a horrible play. I would pay this off, you have a decently strong hand and a big pot, I don't really need to think any further.

(PF is horrible but you dont care)

[/ QUOTE ]

People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here. Neither checking nor betting the river is horrible. Preflop is not horrible. Nothing in this hand is horrible. I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money

[/ QUOTE ]

HPFAP says you shouldn't raise preflop if you think you will be against 3 or 4 opponents with TT or JJ. Limping is not horrible. Arguable? Maybe.

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we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money

[/ QUOTE ]

HPFAP says you shouldn't raise preflop if you think you will be against 3 or 4 opponents with TT or JJ. Limping is not horrible. Arguable? Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's obviously not a no-brainer decision. In this case I was in the worst position with a super aggressive postflop player on the button and limpers who would chase overs. It was a perfect spot to limp, because with a favourable board I would be able to force overcard draws into a serious error. I actually think raising here would have been a suboptimal play, by a large margin.

Anyways, the river was the interesting street to me, and has been discussed a bit. I feel it's a clear call, even in retrospect.

[ QUOTE ]
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Checking this river is a horrible play. I would pay this off, you have a decently strong hand and a big pot, I don't really need to think any further.

(PF is horrible but you dont care)

[/ QUOTE ]

People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here. Neither checking nor betting the river is horrible. Preflop is not horrible. Nothing in this hand is horrible. I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the phenomenon you describe is quite common, and true, it is also true that their are situations where certain decisions are horrible. Folding AA preflop, mucking the nuts on the river, etc. While our society breeds us to be fluffy happy love bunnies, where everyones opinion is good and right, in poker (as in almost all things in life) there are right and wrong answers.

Checking this river is wrong. Yes you may induce a bluff, yes you may be beat, but based on the information we have, checking this river is very wrong. Betting the river for value is one of the main keys to beating loose limit hold'em games. It is as important as decent preflop play, which is also very important.

And while you may say not raising with 10-10 here is an ok play, it is not. Yes, not raising preflop may put you in some better spots post flop, this is true, but raising preflop exploits a large equity gap. It is not unlikely that some of your opponents will have under pairs, 1 over 1 under card, 2 undercards, or 2 overcards that will hit the flop only 1/3.

I know you don't want to debate the preflop play, and that's fine, but don't say it's "ok" and expect that to go unchallenged. If you want to ignore it, then ignore it.

Your comment about the polarization of arguments on this board (and in every aspect of debate, I think) is spot on. Undoubtably, I do a bit of it as well, and it's something to think about.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checking this river is a horrible play. I would pay this off, you have a decently strong hand and a big pot, I don't really need to think any further.

(PF is horrible but you dont care)

[/ QUOTE ]

People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here. Neither checking nor betting the river is horrible. Preflop is not horrible. Nothing in this hand is horrible. I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the phenomenon you describe is quite common, and true, it is also true that their are situations where certain decisions are horrible. Folding AA preflop, mucking the nuts on the river, etc. While our society breeds us to be fluffy happy love bunnies, where everyones opinion is good and right, in poker (as in almost all things in life) there are right and wrong answers.

Checking this river is wrong. Yes you may induce a bluff, yes you may be beat, but based on the information we have, checking this river is very wrong. Betting the river for value is one of the main keys to beating loose limit hold'em games. It is as important as decent preflop play, which is also very important.

And while you may say not raising with 10-10 here is an ok play, it is not. Yes, not raising preflop may put you in some better spots post flop, this is true, but raising preflop exploits a large equity gap. It is not unlikely that some of your opponents will have under pairs, 1 over 1 under card, 2 undercards, or 2 overcards that will hit the flop only 1/3.

I know you don't want to debate the preflop play, and that's fine, but don't say it's "ok" and expect that to go unchallenged. If you want to ignore it, then ignore it.

Your comment about the polarization of arguments on this board (and in every aspect of debate, I think) is spot on. Undoubtably, I do a bit of it as well, and it's something to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, but I should point out that against the ranges I am up against here, I am not exploiting a "large" equity gap by raising. They have a wide range, but I am not only a dog to the field, I am likely a coinflip against at least one hand. The best thing to do in that spot, in my opinion, was to make sure they made a huge flop error, because none of them would have been making an error by calling a raise preflop, and I would have been making subsequent chasing correct for almost any two cards with a pf raise. The goal was to win the pot, and sometimes the best way to do that is not to exploit an immediate small edge so as to preserve a later, larger one.

[bernie]

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The first two limpers are horrendous, and the button is a tight-ish preflop player (25%) but majorly overaggressive postflop.

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[ QUOTE ]
I actually think raising here would have been a suboptimal play, by a large margin.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have 2 horrendous players limping and a super aggro limping(which usually means he has crap). This would be anything but suboptimal not even close to a large margin. This is an easy raise.

You have a "super aggressive" on the button. You can raise this preflop, check to the button and he'd likely still bet figuring you missed with your AK so you can raise.

You can also wait and c/r the turn if the guy is likely to bet 2 streets in a row (if he's really that "super aggro").

b