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#11
11-02-2005, 10:24 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think I want to raise, if our read on button is that strong. [/ QUOTE ] I think you have the the understanding of the read backwards. Think about it... how will the rockish player react if you raise? How will the rock react if you call? TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Seems like he'll call either way with an overpair, and he'll fold UIed overcards... no? [/ QUOTE ] Good. So we have a clue where we stand against the maniac, but we don't know where we stand against the Rock. Raising will most likely make him call with a hand that is both better or worse than the hero's. Calling however tells us a bit more about the Rock's holding.... as a reminder - [ QUOTE ] The button (rock who is very tight, very passive. He doesn't often raise, even his good hands. He *never* bluffs. .) [/ QUOTE ] TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 
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#12
11-02-2005, 10:25 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who just wants to fold this preflop? [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, prelfop is def a shitty spot to be in. Lets just say that BB's cap means nothing. Now you're OOP against a solid player with big unsuited cards. My first thought was also to fold. But the author disagreed saying you're getting 5:1. Really, I don't know which is best. I think its close, sure, but the flop is more interesting than pre-flop, IMO.
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#13
11-02-2005, 10:32 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
If Button raises, I'm done with the hand. If he overcalls, there is no fear of a slowplay and I can simply raise the turn UI [/ QUOTE ] The read says that he's very tight, very passive, and rarely raises (even his good hands). I can see a rock like that going into calldown mode with AA after a paired flop. I can very easily see him going into calldown with a hand like QQ or JJ (or even KK) after it's capped 3 ways preflop and there's a paired flop. I don't think it tells us a whole lot if he just overcalls the flop.
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#14
11-02-2005, 10:40 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
The read says that he's very tight, very passive, and rarely raises (even his good hands). I can see a rock like that going into calldown mode with AA after a paired flop. I can very easily see him going into calldown with a hand like QQ or JJ (or even KK) after it's capped 3 ways preflop and there's a paired flop. I don't think it tells us a whole lot if he just overcalls the flop. [/ QUOTE ] Eh, I think you're putting a bit too much stock in the read. I'd classify qq-jj-KK-AA as a stronger than good hand. If we're saying that he can 3-bet pre-flop with QQ and JJ (which a lot of people DO NOT DO), then I think its safe to say he can raise this flop.
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#15
11-02-2005, 11:02 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think I want to raise, if our read on button is that strong. [/ QUOTE ] I think you have the the understanding of the read backwards. Think about it... how will the rockish player react if you raise? How will the rock react if you call? TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Seems like he'll call either way with an overpair, and he'll fold UIed overcards... no? [/ QUOTE ] Good. So we have a clue where we stand against the maniac, but we don't know where we stand against the Rock. Raising will most likely make him call with a hand that is both better or worse than the hero's. Calling however tells us a bit more about the Rock's holding.... as a reminder - [ QUOTE ] The button (rock who is very tight, very passive. He doesn't often raise, even his good hands. He *never* bluffs. .) [/ QUOTE ] TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure that I'm following. Button is calling either way with an overpair. He might call with overcards, but we might be able to make him fold AK/AQ with a raise. Button is probably never raising here. So how do we learn anything about his hand by calling?
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#16
11-02-2005, 11:05 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
So how do we learn anything about his hand by calling? [/ QUOTE ] Well, he didn't raise, and he didn't fold. So, he's still interested and not interested enough to raise. Simple, no?
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#17
11-02-2005, 11:15 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So how do we learn anything about his hand by calling? [/ QUOTE ] Well, he didn't raise, and he didn't fold. So, he's still interested and not interested enough to raise. Simple, no? [/ QUOTE ] I thought TT was saying we learn more about his hand if WE just call...?
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#18
11-02-2005, 11:18 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
I thought TT was saying we learn more about his hand if WE just call...? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, TT was saying just that. If we call, then we get to see what he does. We know he only raises with very strong hands and he doesn't bluff. We don't really need to know what he folds if he folds.
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#19
11-02-2005, 11:25 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I thought TT was saying we learn more about his hand if WE just call...? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, TT was saying just that. If we call, then we get to see what he does. We know he only raises with very strong hands and he doesn't bluff. We don't really need to know what he folds if he folds. [/ QUOTE ] ah, okay, I went back and re-read some of your other posts in this thread. I was under the assumption that the rock is so passive that he wouldn't raise the flop with an overpair, thus we'd still learn nothing. I'm on the same page now at least [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
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#20
11-02-2005, 11:27 PM
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Re: alright, let me see if I can avoid butchering this one
I typed out a pretty long response, hit the back button to make sure I was remembering the flop correctly, and lost it because the new "upgraded" forums can't remember what I typed (like the old ones could). [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
In a nutshell: we are definitely not ahead of Button at this stage in the hand. If we're continuing, it has to be on the assumption that we can force him to fold a better hand...given that doing so probably involves raising at some point, and that we can be pretty sure that we'll be 3-bet by Mr. Spewer when we do that, I don't think it's worth trying.
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